Page 2 of 2

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:27 am
by Sheriff Lytton
Fist and Faith wrote:... I like to understand what others believe, and why. Partly curiosity, partly to avoid misunderstandings in the future, partly because it's part of my journey.
With that in mind, perhaps I'm going to stick my neck out and expand a little on my main bone of contention with many religions, and that is their lack of tolerance of other people's faith and the curious desire of some of their representatives to enlighten the unenlightened as to the error of their ways.

I hold no grudge against anyone for having beliefs, so long as they don't keep insisting they're the only ones worth having and that all society should live by them. Where I live is hardly the bible belt, but we seem to have a neverending trickle of people who have nothing better to do with their time than go knocking on doors spreading the good word, or stopping you in the street and trying to get you to pop along to the church.

A couple of years back I had the misfortune to get doorknocked by some absolute madman who (with I admit, a little nudge of encouragement in the right direction here and there) in very short time began earnestly telling me all about how the world got here. He did the whole "first of all there was nothing, then God made the Earth in six days and on the seventh day he rested" bit. "Let there be light" was definitely mentioned in there somwhere. I let him talk on a bit and then asked him if he'd researched planetary or stellar formation in any depth, started dismantling his claims, and his sole line of justification for what he was saying eventually proved to be little more than "Well, it's what it says in the book says and the book knows best".

As I felt inclined towards a good debate and was in one of those smartarse moods, I stood there for a good hour and discussed the basic principles and findings of cosmology, astronomy, planetary/stellar accretion theory and anthropology (it had degenerated into a debate on the likely validy of the Garden of Eden thing at this point) at... sorry, with this man, and he objected to pretty much everything I said on the grounds that what he'd been told couldn't possibly be wrong, it was just unquestionably right and that was all there was to it.

As much as I enjoyed the whole experience, I'm the sort of person who also happens to get rather annoyed that the village idiot feels they are prefectly entitled to come and knock at my door and wheel out the most appalling dark ages gibberish at me, on the grounds that they're doing God's work. Perhaps telling him this at the end of our conversation was a bit rude of me, but by then I was so exasperated with him I was past caring.

I always viewed faith as being a personal thing. Although I describe myself as being an athiest, I say so in the sense that I do not subscribe to any particular brand of religion. But if you ever need proof that you're part of something unique, a look at what we know about the universe around us should provide plenty if opportunity. Once you start to get a handle on the sheer distances involved and the scope of the thing, and see the sheer variety of stuff going on in it... well, that was my cosmic moment of wonder at it all if you like.

I don't know for sure how the universe got here, if the Big Bang was God's work or if it just happened/didn't happen. I don't profess to have the first idea if consciousness transcends mortality. But if you take the entirety of Creation and regard it as divine, then everything within it is by definition a part of that divinity. That seems an amazing enough possibility for me anyway, and with that in mind I do my best to lead an existence that doesn't bring pain to anyone and generally be a peaceable chap (except in debate).

And it makes me wonder why some of the more zealous among the religiously inclined feel that this means I'm off straight to hell because the book says so. And I really do consider it highly unlikely that what God thinks would be best right now would be for me to be put straight on all of this, that I should get down the church at the next available opportunity and that nothing else will stop my soul suffering eternal torment.

I find that my main stumbling block with many religions is that the people who came up with them had no idea that the Earth was not the centre of the universe and could easily surmise that all of creation is here for man's benefit. Indeed, it's not been that long in the scale of history when believing otherwise could get you in a lot of trouble indeed.

When you have no sense of scale and you believe the rest of the universe goes round the world you naturally make assumptions and come out with daft conclusions like "Well, God made the Earth and it seems to suit us very well... God must be like us." But we're too well informed these days for that kind of thinking...

Or are we ? The conventional religious view of God making man and man alone in his own image, Earth and humans being the highest priority on God's list and all that is so far out of date it's ridiculous, but it's a view held by a lot of people.

I'd say it was a childish view that seriously lacked a sense of perspective.

Well, I've gone on enough, but really that's what it stems from for me. I've been accused on many occasions by plenty of people of having a lack of tolerance for religion. I don't think that's quite true, I have a lack of tolerance for the inability of certain religious types to lighten up and stop having such a lack of tolerance for any other belief system.

And I know preaching to the converted lacks that element of challenge, but that's who I feel it should be aimed at. Those who need religious guidance invariably go and find it anyway. Those who peddle it on the street are no better than double glazing salesmen and some of them should learn to pay attention and stop viewing it as a challenge when the sign on someone's front door says "No Religion Please !"

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:39 am
by danlo
The Sheriff wrote:I describe myself as being an athiest, I say so in the sense that I do not subscribe to any particular brand of religion
I feel the same way-I don't personally believe in organised religion- but I've never called myself an athiest... :?

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:04 am
by Sheriff Lytton
Well, I've always said that there's nothing a good agnostic can't do if he doesn't know if he believes in anything or not

(M. Python)

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:08 am
by danlo
Point taken, I do believe but what I believe in is another matter.

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:00 am
by Dragonlily
Excellent post, Sheriff. Every viewpoint in the world must inevitably be different from every other viewpoint, and how anyone can try to make someone else's like their own, beats me.

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:16 am
by Avatar
It's that sense of conviction that the Sheriff mentions. That unshakeable certainty that X is right, and that there are no other options possible, that all other options in fact cannot be right.

I've never been able to understand it myself. I've made a point of doubt for almost my entire life. As I've said before, I'm totally untrusting of certainty. It's dangerous stuff.

But what instills it, I do not know. Great post Sheriff, and Fist too by the way.

Are people such as those somehow "offended" by the fact that not everybody is like them? Do they really think that the world would be a better place if everybody was identical? What a terrifying thought!

--Avatar

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:28 am
by Fist and Faith
The Jehovah's Witnesses are required to do a certain number of hours of door-to-door Witnessing. God commands the witnessing, though I don't know how the specific number of hours is arrived at.

But some people are less structured about it, trying to convert others at any given time. I have to believe that at least some of them do so because they think they have found the answer to happiness and life, and want to share it all.

Of course, imo, the best way to preach is leading by example. If I ever think I believe in anything, and want to explore it, I'm going to Furls! :)

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:33 am
by dennisrwood
Sheriff Lytton : members of the Catholic Church are commanded to view other religions in the best light possible. now some are hard to view that way, but there you have it.

my own conviction is to explain when asked. I'm not here to force conversion. but if anyone wants to, I'll be happy to help. we all have gifts and conversion is less one of mine. answering questions I seem to do ok.

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:30 am
by Nathan
I don't know how the specific number of hours is arrived at.
There's no requirement other than what they impose upon themselves personally (Except they must all do their best).

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:43 pm
by Sheriff Lytton
Sheriff Lytton wrote:Well, I've always said that there's nothing a good agnostic can't do if he doesn't know if he believes in anything or not

(M. Python)
danlo wrote:Point taken, I do believe but what I believe in is another matter.
Danlo, I promise you I wan't making any point with that Python quote there other than an attempt at levity. I just think it's one of the greatest one-liners ever.

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:47 pm
by Sheriff Lytton
Fist and Faith wrote:The Jehovah's Witnesses are required to do a certain number of hours of door-to-door Witnessing. God commands the witnessing, though I don't know how the specific number of hours is arrived at.
In that case I think I've seen God ! He was a little fat bloke from the Kingdom Hall, drove a very nice Mercedes if I remember rightly :twisted:

Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:02 pm
by Cybrweez
Avatar wrote:I've made a point of doubt for almost my entire life. As I've said before, I'm totally untrusting of certainty. It's dangerous stuff.
Are you certain of that? ;)

Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:02 am
by Avatar
:LOLS: Fairly certain. ;)

--A