Kevin's Watch

I understand what you're saying. After all, how could one deny that spirit is the root of the word spirituality? And, without looking into it at all, I'm willing to believe it was meant in the more commonly accepted way, rather than as the "human spirit" I talked about above.

My position is this. And even if it didn't actually happen this way, I think the result is the same. Again, I think the search for meaning, happiness, and contentment are spiritual matters. But in the beginning of humanity's searching, the only roads travelled were those that involved "spirits." (The non-alcoholic type, that is. The searching that involves alcohol is another matter entirely. ) People thought spirits and gods were responsible for everything, right? That long ago, nobody was finding the same kinds of answers I find. And so, the search for meaning, contentment, and happiness has come to be synonymous with the belief in spirits.

Which, of course, leaves me out in the cold. Since I don't know of a word that means searching for those things with or without spirits, I need to use spiritual. And I think the human spirit I spoke of is a valid point. If I didn't, I wouldn't want to be thought of as a spiritual person. After all, I don't call myself a religious person because of these matters, even though it seems most people answer these questions with religion.

But in the interest of avoiding the understandable confusion this whole thing can cause, I'm willing to consider words that mean the search without the spirits, if you know of any.

Self-awareness, Fist? (I have heard scientists refer to that as the criterion for sapience, but imo scientists define it pretty narrowly.)

Excellent quote, Mhoram.

Personally, I always use the word "spiritual" to refer to the nonphysical being, and to me, when you think from a spirit viewpoint, there is no isolation between self and other.

Possibly, Joy.

And thanks for a rare appearance in The Close!

"Spirituality" is certainly a nebulous term, and as usual, many of our difficulties arise from the subjective interpretation thereof.

I think of it primarily as "pertaining to the spirit," and I apply it in terms of the human spirit. Anything in consideration thereof counts as "spiritual".

Not that I consider myself "spiritual" in some mystical/religious sense at all. In fact, frequently that whole "spiritual" things renders me uncomfortable at best.

If I had my druthers, I'd like things to be quantified a bit more neatly.

Can you be "spiritual" without seeking some external "higher being"? Sure. Why not? As somebody mentioned, higher consciousness can be considered a spiritual state.

And really, I guess that's all I'm looking for. Some elevated state of consciousness that will increase my understanding of the world, and of the people that inhabit it.

--Avatar

Fist wrote:

But in the beginning of humanity's searching, the only roads travelled were those that involved "spirits." (The non-alcoholic type, that is. The searching that involves alcohol is another matter entirely. )

What? Wait.... were we talking about religion or something? I was talking about booze. I was tanked that night, by the beach.... Wow, I guess I totally misunderstood the thread...

.... *Goes to get 'spiritual'*

Glad I was here to help, Jem. So many people think "spiritual" means "stinkin' drunk."

Well, I thought it was funny...hehe

I would say that we as a culture have pretty much seperated spirtuality and religion to the point that it means belief in anything other than religion.

dennis, I think it's very often used to mean anything other than organized religion. But I imagine Furls thinks herself spiritual, and she's certainly religious! And a Christian, though not of any particular denomination. I know, and know of, other people who believe strongly in God, the Christian one or otherwise, who are considered spiritual.

There are other people who are spiritual whose views I think would be considered religious. But then, we haven't really defined religion, have we? Just as we haven't found a definition of god that we all agree with yet.

Fist: yes, my apologies. I did mean organized religion.

Dennis sorta said:

I would say that we as a culture have pretty much seperated spirtuality and .....(my input.....ORGANIZED) religion to the point that it means belief in anything other than religion.

Now see.....You learn a new thing every day! I'm so out of the loop, I had absolutely no idea that some people divide spirituality and ORGANIZED religion into two separate entities. Go figure. I'm glad I started this topic

Now you all know how completely atheist I was raised I'm totally clueless when it comes to any kind of religion.

We could argue that that's a far better way to be, really. Live your life to the best of your ability and leave it up to others to wrangle over.

--Avatar

I wonder if dennis' point came about because of the book stores. It's a lot easier to have a separate Religion section, with the Bibles, Talmuds, etc., then to have them mixed in with all the non-traditional books. So they made a Spiritual section. Maybe? I have no idea, but capitalism influences a lot of things.

Over here, they divide them into a "Religious" and an "Esoteric" section, which is where Wiccan, Pagan, etc. go.

--A

Ha! I always knew them witches was esoteric! (And again, that's esoteric. )

Fist: I have seen the stores in Texas seperate between religion and spirituality. in Vermont we had a feminist book store that labeled all of it under spirituality. take that as you see fit.