Kevin's Watch

Don't you ever wonder how Abraham was so sure it was GOD speaking to him and not some other entity?

What would have really sucked is if it just turned out he was schizophrenic!

Well... *sigh* OK, I'll do it. But what I'm about to say isn't an attempt to argue, or even debate. I'm not entirely sure why I'm posting, because I don't see how it could possibly not lead to bad feelings. But that's truly not my intent. I guess I simply desire to be understood. I'm just telling how I feel about this particular issue. This merely goes to show how different people can be, despite our many similarities.

Some look at the story, and see a true, a true, believer. One who loves and trust God absolutely. Even to the degree that he would kill his own son on command, trusting that the reason, though unknown to him, is worth it.

I see things quite differently. First, imo, the end does not justify the means. As I've said about Le Guin's Those Who Walk Away From Omelas, I hold everyone who ever knew about the girl in contempt, because they obviously didn't help her. I am not interested in paradise if it is achieved through sacrifice. I would not enjoy it as I remembered the sacrificee. Therefore, I would tell God to forget it, that I'm not interested in His plan, regardless of the promised outcome. I also don't trust the nature of a paradise built in such ways. Can there be real trust and love? Since such things were required to build it, I have to wonder if such things will be required to maintain it. At least occasionally?

But more important to the story in particular, the main point to my mind is that God acted in this shameful fashion. For me, the point isn't whether or not God ever would have allowed Abraham to do it, but that He ever put Abraham in that position in the first place. If I had been in Abraham's shoes, I'd have said, "WHAT!?! I raised a knife to my son... so you could prove to Satan how much I trust you!!?!! Well guess what? I won't make that mistake again!!!" Unquestionably, joy is in the ears that hear. Edge hears joy in this story that I think is terrible. And I'm happy for Edge! Really! We need all the joy we can find in life.

Edge, I like your answer a WHOLE lot!!! I remember Oprah getting asked this question once maaaaaaaaany years ago (when I thought the show was great!), and she wouldn't answer. She said, "God wouldn't ask me to do that." But when the asker said, "But suppose He did, like He did with Abraham, what would you do?" It was obvious she wouldn't do it, but she didn't want to come right out and say she would refuse God's command, so she repeated, "No, God wouldn't ask me to do that." I, also, was surprised by your answer. And, in light of how strongly you feel about your religion, I applaud your honesty and courage.

Can you really blame Oprah? What would you say, if America was watching? I mean, we can be honest here because it's easy, but speaking our views in plain view of society--or even one's family--ah, there's a different story. I, for one, wouldn't go on the Oprah show and proclaim my atheism; in fact, I'd say I was a Southern Baptist, heh. I still do, in public. I'm not about to give up my WASP privileges.

if God asked me to sacrifice my wife? i would pray that I could, that my faith was strong enough to believe in His plan. and the point is that i'm not sure how strong my faith is, i try and fail more often than not. it's hard to let go. to surrender to Him. but everytime my wife and I do that, good things come from it. i'd like to believe that my faith is strong, and that I could be trusted to obey...

dennisrwood wrote:if God asked me to sacrifice my wife? i would pray that I could, that my faith was strong enough to believe in His plan. and the point is that i'm not sure how strong my faith is, i try and fail more often than not. it's hard to let go. to surrender to Him. but everytime my wife and I do that, good things come from it. i'd like to believe that my faith is strong, and that I could be trusted to obey...

Your post gives me various emotions which I am not going to go into. However, a few questions.

Would you sacrifice your wife if she was unwilling, if only you had this revelation that this should be done ? If she is willing, then it is nothing more than assisted suicide.

Or if the roles were reversed, your wife had a revelation that she should sacrifice you - unbeknownst to you. Would you accept that she sacrifice you, when you have been given no signal from God that this is his commandment ?

I'm less interested by this supposed 'test' as I am by Abraham having sex with a servant (while married to Sarah) and impregnating her, then sending her and his son on their merry way with a little bread, then whoring his wife to the Egyptians.

Faith indeed. Insane maybe.
Or at least someone who should sleep and eat with the dogs.

Fist and Faith wrote:...Some look at the story, and see a true, a true, believer. One who loves and trust God absolutely. Even to the degree that he would kill his own son on command, trusting that the reason, though unknown to him, is worth it.

I see things quite differently. First, imo, the end does not justify the means... I am not interested in paradise if it is achieved through sacrifice. I would not enjoy it as I remembered the sacrificee. Therefore, I would tell God to forget it, that I'm not interested in His plan, regardless of the promised outcome. I also don't trust the nature of a paradise built in such ways. Can there be real trust and love? Since such things were required to build it, I have to wonder if such things will be required to maintain it. At least occasionally?

But more important to the story in particular, the main point to my mind is that God acted in this shameful fashion. For me, the point isn't whether or not God ever would have allowed Abraham to do it, but that He ever put Abraham in that position in the first place...

This also is my position. Regardless of the Biblical intent of the story, even when it was first introduced to me, I felt it was wrong for God to do that to Abraham. What kind of God would require such offerings?

I know I could never do it. And, if I were tasked to sacrifice my child(ren) by my God, any love or esteem I may have had for Him would vanish instantly.

A believer/worshiper of any god should never be asked to choose between his child/wife/husband/mother/father and his/her god. If that is the choice required to prove faith, call me faithless.

Edge--"YOU are Abraham" was in fact meant to be "YOU are in Abraham's shoes." But I believe you answered both questions equally well.

And in the end, should your god approach you today and request a sacrifice of your child, would you even believe that what you heard/saw was indeed your god?

dennis--you don't believe in the death penalty, so why would you pass that sentence to your wife?

I would think that strenght can be found in refusing a choice that was inconsistent with our own morality, regardless of who made the request.

Personally, I don't beleive that any God did (or would) ask someone named Abraham (or wahtever) to sacrifice his/her child in the name of Faith.

Old Testiment stories (many of them) are Hebrew mythology as far as I'm concerned.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong Christian-I go to Church, and I listen to these stories, and I get the lesson taught in them; but that doesn't neccecarly beleive that they are all true. I have my doubts that The Flood ever happened, I doubt that Jonah was ever swallowed by a whale.

Earlier in the Abraham story, before Isaac was born (nice name..Isaac!) God supposedly visited Abe as a Man and told him that he would have a son...but in all other stories, god could not walk on the Earth, at-least until he manifested himself as Jesus Christ.

Personally, I beleive the lesson in this story is that if you put all your failth in God--he/she/it will protect you.

drew wrote:Personally, I don't beleive that any God did (or would) ask someone named Abraham (or wahtever) to sacrifice his/her child in the name of Faith.

Well, as far as the "did" goes, that's what I think too. But the question, then, is; If you believed that some particular God existed, and you believed that God told you to kill your child, would you?

drew wrote:Earlier in the Abraham story, before Isaac was born (nice name..Isaac!) God supposedly visited Abe as a Man and told him that he would have a son...but in all other stories, god could not walk on the Earth, at-least until he manifested himself as Jesus Christ.

IIRC, after eating the apple, Eve (or was it Adam? I don't have a Bible with me.) hid when she heard God's footsteps as he was walking in Eden.

I would not kill my child--or anyone else's child, no matter who told me to do it.

If God demanded I do it, I guess I'd pack burn ointment and marshmallows and buy a ticket to hell.

I believe that the REAL God is beyond our comprehension--and that sometimes ancient peoples wrote down what they THOUGHT God was all about.

I prefer to believe in a just and rational God who doesn't get angry and slay hundreds of innocents (or misguided souls) simply because he is pissed off.

The God who created us is supposed to be our father in heaven. Would a father order his child to kill his grandchild? I don't think so.

Religion (and what it does to some people) scares me. Zealots who have become irrational in their belief systems scare me.

I like to read C.S. Lewis because he was very rational, and the image of God that he put forward was very believable.

ChoChiyo wrote:I would not kill my child--or anyone else's child, no matter who told me to do it.

If God demanded I do it, I guess I'd pack burn ointment and marshmallows and buy a ticket to hell.

From the sound of this thread, you'd have plenty of company. Perhaps we could all ride the same bus down.

My faith is incredible! But I can't even kill a bug so...

duchess of malfi wrote:

ChoChiyo wrote:I would not kill my child--or anyone else's child, no matter who told me to do it.

If God demanded I do it, I guess I'd pack burn ointment and marshmallows and buy a ticket to hell.

From the sound of this thread, you'd have plenty of company. Perhaps we could all ride the same bus down.

BUS TRIP!

ur-bane: i think that is why i have trouble with the question. i have a hard time imagining God asking me to kill anybody or anything. my wife and i talked about it and we both had trouble with the question. i can't imagine a scenerio where it would come to play. but if the question was modified. "what if God asked you to leave your spouse behind to face some great danger, while you were commanded to do something else?" but that seems like cheating on the question, no?

Vector: we discussed the point, and yes we would try to do as God commanded. but neither could honestly say that as the question was posed we could go through with it. the command seems so not in tune with where God has placed us.

but i believe that God wouldn't ask for something in such a way now anyway. i have been commanded to not kill, not even animals. so i can't imagine that this test would be put before me.

dennisrwood wrote:Vector: we discussed the point, and yes we would try to do as God commanded. but neither could honestly say that as the question was posed we could go through with it. the command seems so not in tune with where God has placed us.

but i believe that God wouldn't ask for something in such a way now anyway. i have been commanded to not kill, not even animals. so i can't imagine that this test would be put before me.

I agree, I do think that this is something that a just God would ask of us.

I have always thought as the Abraham/Isaac story as an allegory for the Jews rejection of infanticide - sort of a "Yeah, we'd do that if our god asked it, but he's really into ram's blood right now" kind of thing.

It's really the only thing that makes sense, in conjunction with the whole "God is Love" bit.

Fist and Faith wrote:...I also don't trust the nature of a paradise built in such ways...

...the point isn't whether or not God ever would have allowed Abraham to do it, but that He ever put Abraham in that position in the first place.

Well said Fist. So well said in fact, that this is the only thing I feel the need to say on this topic. For now.

--Avatar

I just finished reading a biography of Tudor scientist and mystical scholar John Dee. He worked for decades with a medium/channel/whatyoumaycall'um whose messages he had learned to trust as the words of God and his angels. The man who was his medium finally got a letch for Dee's wife, and the angels began to demand that the men trade wives.

Dee refused for a long time, but the angels demanded it as a test of his faith, so after much agony and soulsearching he talked his wife into it for one episode.

Very sad story. The results were not good.

In other words, the word of "God" has to filter through fallible humans. Such violations should be dismissed.

"I have spoken."

Thought number 1: It is highly unlikely that the REAL GOD would ask us to do something that he has expressly forbidden us to do.

Thought number 2: There are plenty of arseholes in the world who have no problem at all with putting words in God's mouth.

Dragonlily wrote:...and the angels began to demand that the men trade wives.

Oh man, what a surprise!

Cho-- What? You mean like murder? Impregnate our brothers wives?

I agree with thought two though, and would like to add that there are plenty of people willing to be exploited by what others tell them god says/wants as well.

*shakes head*

--A