Kevin's Watch

"To Hile And Back"
(to "Le Marsellaise" ... the Fitzroy FC version)

We're the warward of blind Hile Troy,
We'll march our arse off, because of you.
And we will always march for victory,
And we'll always see it through.
Win or lose, we'll do our die.
We're near defeat, at the foot of Sky .... weir.

Hile Troy, Hile Troy,
Into the trees he runs in fear.
Our victory, will be unclear.

------------------------------

"That Old Troyligion"
(to some song from "Inherit The Wind")
Just give me that old Troyligion,
that old Troyligion,
that old Troyligion,
was blind ... now still can't see.

onions wrote:Actually, deep down inside of me, I know I absolutely hated Troy.
He thought he was so bloody better than Covenant. He thought he could outsmart Foul and be the Saviour of the Land. And then he'd be a Real Hero and Elena would say "Oh Troy, you saved the Land!" and be his babe forever. He risked the whole Land because he was thinking with his balls!

(Sorry, strong feelings there in my second post. I guess I identify too much with Covenant!)

onions

Yep, great post. Solidifies once and for all my feelings that the character of Hile Troy was engendered solely to show us where fate would have led TC had he chosen a 'fair enough its probably a dream but what the hey lets pretend its real and cover my bases' attitude.

When Hile Troy becomes Hiles Tree, I felt a message that went along the lines of 'see, Covenant's path is a PATH, while the alternative, what Troy did, was a short, stabbing, action.

I confuse myself

You guys are just lashing out as a way of dealing with your repressed homsexual love for Hile.

Did everyone miss the point where he kicked that Ravers ass? Sure it was with the help of a Forestal and it cost him free will and human existance and the majority of the Warward but he still won.

Hell everyone in the Land still loves Kevin and look what he did, maybe just a little bit harsh on the old Troyboy here are you not?

To be serious though, Landwaster is right. I think that is HT's place in the Chrons. I actually do think he exists in the real world and that SRD made it so TC could never be sure and emphasises that fact to strengthen the duplictious nature of his Unbelief, it's all based on the hope of a leper which is none.

Hile Troy wasn't a bad guy, just a little myopic.

Bad puns aside, he did his best. His love for The Land was genuine, and he gave his life, perhaps even his soul to save it. Yes, he had his fair share of hubris, but so did the Bloodguard, so did "blind" Kevin. It's just in their nature.

Besides, without Troy, Andelain probably wouldn't have survived the sunbane.

Hi Landwaster:
"that the character of Hile Troy was engendered solely to show us where fate would have led TC had he chosen a 'fair enough its probably a dream but what the hey lets pretend its real and cover my bases' attitude."

(Sorry, I don't know how to do quotes)

That's a great analysis. We could go a step further and say that if Covenant's mind has created the land as a place to grapple with his inner conflicts symbolically, then Hile Troy is also his creation. Troy might just have existed to show Covenant what would have happened, if he had succumbed to the sweet seduction.
On another level, Donaldson might have invented Troy as an educational example for all those impatient readers who spent book one saying "why doesn't he just get on with it!"

'see, Covenant's path is a PATH, while the alternative, what Troy did, was a short, stabbing, action"

I don't agree with that, though. Covenant and Troy are doing the same thing: serving Lord Foul. Foul is using both their weaknesses: Covenant's fear of acting and Troy's eagerness. The only difference ist that Covenant tragically KNOWS that he is serving Foul with every decision he makes, while Troy doesn't. Covenant's decisions until the end are no better than Troy's.

The only reason Covenant can win and Troy can't is because Covenant is the white gold bearer, while Troy is only an educational foil.

(WARNING - SPOILERS IN HERE)

onions wrote:(Sorry, I don't know how to do quotes)

that was just to make your head explode

Now, thanks for your appraisal, appreciated. I was glad to have you comment.

You got the gist of my first bit for which I'm glad. I wasn't sure if it was explained correctly.

Now regards the bit you don't agree with, I see your point clearly, and now that I think of it, you're right. Hile Troy's existence did actually also serve the hope of the Land, his whole frustration with the war experience led ultimately to the transcendence of the law of life, which in turn opened the way for TC to become the answer for which he'd been searching.

So they both lend similar weight to both sides of the struggle. I'm glad you picked up on what I meant, that HT was more or less what TC would have been had he accepted the reality and the need of the Land.

Here's where I'll go back to an old bugbear of mine. I do not for any moment believe that the Land was just a figment of TC's imagination, that's just personal opinion. Therefore I, of course, don't believe HT was a part of TC's subconscious. I reckon he was a fair dinkum feller from our world. He was part of SRD's conscious, not part of TC's unconscious. Anyway, that's what I reckon.

Now, although HT and TC are 'doing the same thing', I believe that TC's was the correct path. HT's was important, but not the correct path. At least, not for TC. Perhaps it WAS the correct path for Hile. The fact is, I find that HT's entire experience proved to assist us in noting that TC's 'unbelief' was, in fact, a strength, perhaps even a power!

I can hardly see you now, from the far end of the bow I'm drawing, but that's my opinion in a nutshell. TC didn't believe. HT did. TC was set on the path toward belief and victory (through answer), while HT was not. This difference is built upon the unbelief of TC. I reckon his unbelief was half his power, one part of the paradox. Well, I suppose we'd all agree on that. The other half, hey, its got plenty of names!

"I do not for any moment believe that the Land was just a figment of TC's imagination"
Fair enough. I think the point the author is trying to make is that the "realness" of the land is actually irrelevant. As long as you accept that there is a direct connection between TC's decisions in the land and the health of his soul. TC learns to see it that way too, it seems.

"I can hardly see you now, from the far end of the bow I'm drawing"
You trying to be dangerous, huh? Huh?


"I reckon his unbelief was half his power"
One of these days I want to have a long chat with you about what "white gold" REALLY means. But that's for a different thread.

onions wrote:Fair enough. I think the point the author is trying to make is that the "realness" of the land is actually irrelevant.

Yep, agreed!

<realness of the land is irreleant> Nope, cant say I agree w/you there. The realness of the Land determines how Covenannt/Linden acts. Or, rather, not its actual realness, but what Covenant thinks. If he thought the Land was real, do you really think he would have raped Lena? Thats the question we all ask when/after we read that chapter. My answer is no.

But did he not discover his real strength through his realisation that it didn't matter whether the Land was real? Wasn't that the eye of the paradox, that he could act either in belief or unbelief, but then he could act regardless of his level belief, and therefore actually contribute to both the Land's need and also his own?

One acts upon what one thinks. If you think its not real, youre going to act in a different way then if you thought it was real.

Well that sort of makes both of us right!

Didn't the creator allude more than once to how TC was appropriate because, while he couldn't control his actions, he was in a circumstance by which he might make the right decisions without prompting.

If he thought the Land was real, do you really think he would have raped Lena?

Ah, now that is a great question. Might I be so presumptuous as to say that is the same as asking if Covenant is guilty of the rape?

If he would've thought The Land was real, if he would've known what he was doing, he wouldn't have done it. A rational man wouldn't have, and Covenant was put in a situation so irrational he lost his capacity to act rationally. He was a victim of impossible circumstance, and because of this, was driven to victimize Lena in a way that should have been impossible for him (yet I still don't understand how he and Linden...).

That was never good enough for Covenant. The reality of what he had done was more important than the questionable reality of to whom he had done it. I don't remember him ever abrogating his guilt by telling himself or others that he didn't know what he was doing. I believe Mhoram and Linden understood, but Covenant guarded his guilt closely against those who would take it from him.

Ignorance of the law is no excuse. And the law is that all of our actions, perhaps especially the internal ones, have consequences. Covenant lost his own innocence when he raped Lena (true irony).

...and just to tie that in to the original subject...

Hile Troy wanted to be everybody's savior. I don't think he ever saw himself being worthy of The Land or Alena, but he so wanted to be, he never saw own faults, refused to accept them, which thus lead to Lord Foul hitting him in his blind spot. He could not find his balance between guilt and innocence, was too ready to accept the reality of The Land and unprepared to accept the reality that was himself.

I'd wager he didn't have the mettle to defeat Lord Foul even with the White Gold. I think he would have commited his own Desecration at finding that out, which is what was referred to by [This I cannot allow].

One thing, though... Hile Troy has to be the coolest name ever. I woulda named my kid Hile if it didn't sound like "Heil."

bump...for M. Giantfriend and March o' Warward discussion.

Hile troy is not a berk!!!!!

He's the greatest!

nah he's a berk lol

He irritated me! Until he became CC that is. He drove me nuts.

true enuff .. once he became CC .. i did actually like him then too

but yeah before that ... errrrr LOL