Kevin's Watch

The Man Who Fought Alone is indeed the best of those books, not the least because of the martial arts aspect. I also seem to remember that the hero ends up getting knocked around by a master of Shotokan karate, which also is SRD's martial arts style?

I can't remember what style SRD actually does, but the writing of TMWFA certainly suggests Shotokan (although SRD is some way short of Brew's colossal frame, so maybe I'm wrong).

I just remembered the original reason I posted in this thread. I think that the Lords may indeed have been given some sword training; Mhoram did alright with the krill didn't he?

I don't think the Sword is inferior to the Staff. The Krill was a short sword, created by Loric, and it contained Earthpower, enough power to withstand a Giant Raver with an Illearth stone. Neither Lord Mhoram or any of the Lords could understand or use the Krill, so it clearly surpassed them.

A Staff is a piece of wood, and remember, Mhorams Staff ultimately was destroyed because it could not handle the power Mhoram sent through it.

I think the Lords of the first chronicle time were limited to Staff BECAUSE they had only partially mastered the first two of Kevin's Seven lores. Maybe, just maybe, the Lores after were more powerful, and went beyond Staff to include Sword. I can totally imagine High Lord Kevin wielding a powerful sword like the Krill.

Baracka wrote:I don't think the Sword is inferior to the Staff. The Krill was a short sword, created by Loric, and it contained Earthpower, enough power to withstand a Giant Raver with an Illearth stone. Neither Lord Mhoram or any of the Lords could understand or use the Krill, so it clearly surpassed them.

I think the Lords of the first chronicle time were limited to Staff BECAUSE they had only partially mastered the first two of Kevin's Seven lores. Maybe, just maybe, the Lores after were more powerful, and went beyond Staff to include Sword. I can totally imagine High Lord Kevin wielding a powerful sword like the Krill.

Actually the Krill was powerless when the Lords found it.
Wasn't it even dull?
It was TC that super fired it up with Wild Magic.
When he was gone from the Land it went out.
High Lord Mhoram was able to get a gleam of blue out of it briefly though.
I'd love to learn more about the Krill but I never got the impression that swords were more important than a staff or that any of the Old Lords weilded krill-like weapons.
But we don't know for sure though.

The krill is the exception, not the rule. It is not the "sword" of the Warward.
Also, Mastery of the Sword precedes mastery of the Staff. One couldn't move on to the Staff until one had mastered the sword.
The Lords weren't limited to the Staff, but it enabled them to use Earthpower in ways which a sword could not.

EDIT---HLT, you snuck in on me there.
I remember the krill exactly as you said, Covenant awakened it, and Mhoram did as well for an instant. (IIRC, Mhoram knew the Despiser was defeated when the gem once again was white instead of green and white/green.) It seems the krill reacts to the prevailing power at the time, perhaps.

I never once got the impression that the Old Lords had krills used in combat. I always thought of it as a one of a kind specialty tool.

Agree with ur-bane and HLT.

I don't think we can know for sure to say the Krill was the exception. The Lords of the first Chronicles time had only recovered 2 of 7 of Kevin's Wards. And they barely understood what they had.

So who can say the Sword precedes the Staff? That was how the present Council trained to become Lords, but they themselves were hardly masters.

But if a short sword like the Krill existed, you can BET that there were other swords. Why would there be only ONE sword? Doesn't make sense. Remember, most of Kevin's power was destroyed by the Ritual of Descecration. The Staff of Law itself was lost as a result of the carnage. What other weapons or Lore were lost? I think much lore and tools of High Lord Kevin was lost.

Baracka wrote:But if a short sword like the Krill existed, you can BET that there were other swords. Why would there be only ONE sword?

Why only one Staff of Law?

This brings us into the disputed realm of Land Technology. The obviousness of 'if you can make one, make more' is a technological way of thinking. A magical way of thinking is: if there is one, then the need has been fulfilled. (In fantasy, it is always the One Ring, the One Tree, the One This, the One That.)

I think there is only one weapon like the krill. That's why it keeps coming back.

Also, while Lords' staves seem to be something special, Lords swords (as far as we have seen) have been mundane. It doesn't mean there aren't any special ones, but we don't have any reason to suspect that there are, either.

Is it safe to say that The Sword is a physical/mental training, and The Staff is a magical/spiritual training? If so, this may explain why there seem to be more magical staves around than magical swords. (Yet, the ur-viles use magical scimitars; and the ur-vile's magic is considered 'outside of Law'.)

But, then, why create a krill in the first place? The need for that weapon (which seems to be something to do with the Viles) must have been complex. (Maybe: If something is outside, you have to go outside to meet it; if you need to fight creatures whose lore is outside of Law, perhaps you need to step outside of Law a bit yourself.)

Wayfriend wrote:Is it safe to say that The Sword is a physical/mental training, and The Staff is a magical/spiritual training?

This is my point exactly. Whenever SRD mentions the sword, I never actually thought that it was limited to just long knives with big handles.

I agree that the krill was an exception. Loric created it to meet a specific need. Once he'd done what he needed to do, then I believe that the krill was no more special than a staff that could cut. Maybe it could handle more power than a staff, we don't know. It certainly outstripped Mhoram's staff, but he actually makes the point that his staff was created by those who did not fully understand Kevin's Lore.

ur-bane, I can recall no evidence that mastery of the sword precedes mastery of the staff. Nor do I think that the staff is more power ful than the sword. Corimini and Asuraka certainly didn't appear to be any more powerful than Drinishok, and the Lorewardens seemed kinda useless during Satansfist's assault on Revelstone.

I think that the two forms of lore, staff and sword, both compliment and enhance each other when an individual studies both. So a student goes to Revelwood and learns either the sword or the staff. If they excel in their studies, and they have aspirations of Lord-ship, then they can go on and study the other discipline.

So Hyrim and Amatin might originally be students of the staff who go on to study the sword and then become Lords, while Shetra and Verement are students of the sword who go on to study the staff. By doing so, Amatin's abilities as a sword student are greater than they otherwise would have been because she is a master of the staff, and Verement's abilities as a staff student are greater than they otherwise would have been because he is a master of the sword.

And, because all people are still individuals and therefore different, each Lord has stregnths and weaknesses and leanings in certain areas. Thus Amatin is stronger in staff-lore, and in the study aspect of that law, Hyrim is weak in terms of some of the physical aspects of sword-lore, such as horsemanship, and Shetra and Verement probably liked a good melee now and then.

Make sense?

Does to me - good post!

Thanks Don.

So a Lord fighting with their staff is actually using both types of lore - sword for the actual physical weapon and staff for the blue lords-fire.

variol son wrote:
So a Lord fighting with their staff is actually using both types of lore - sword for the actual physical weapon and staff for the blue lords-fire.

That was my opinion aswell.

In PTP Elena whirls around and wields the Staff "with a combat grip" - implying that the Lords are trained in physically wielding their staffs.

Also in PTP, High Lord Mhoram attacks Satansfist physically with his staff rather than with Lords-fire.

My $0.02 is that the Sword applies to physical combat, and the Staff is all about wielding Earthpower.

True, so what you guys are saying is that learning the Sword is not necesarily learning swordplay. But it could just mean learning the means of attack and defense, right?