Kevin's Watch

My first post here (other than my intro).

I read the series in the 80s and also more recently.

As a woman, I was not really disturbed by the rape.

It's just fiction, and to be honest, it happened very early in the story line. So early, that I hadn't yet had a chance to sympathize with Covenant yet. Now, had he raped somehow in book 2 or 3, then I think I would have been really angry.

Also, I believe the rape was a predictable outcome of a leper's visit to the land, and was one of the reasons the Creator chose Thomas. The rape and its rippling affects thruout the series I have to someone believe was intended to acheive victory over Foul (though I would be hard-pressed to prove that right now).

As such, I think Lena was more a victim or sacrifice of the Creator more so than a victim of Covenant.

lomillialor wrote:It's just fiction, and to be honest, it happened very early in the story line. So early, that I hadn't yet had a chance to sympathize with Covenant yet. Now, had he raped someone in book 2 or 3, then I think I would have been really angry.

Hello and welcome and come on in, lomillialor.

I think this is the first time I read of someone who took it precisely that way. Very interesting.

Welcome again.

Interesting post indeed. I certainly think that the refining fire of his guilt contributed in a large way toward his eventual triumph, if in no other way than it forged him into the person he became later in the series, perhaps even only in the 2nd Chrons.

The below, I think, is a particularly interesting way of looking at it:

lomillialor wrote:As such, I think Lena was more a victim or sacrifice of the Creator more so than a victim of Covenant.

Do you think the creator knew what TC would do?

--A

Not to mention the fact that if TC hadn't raped Lena, she would never have given birth to Elena (well not the same Elena anyway) and that would have changed the whole course of events in the Land!

Avatar wrote:

lomillialor wrote:As such, I think Lena was more a victim or sacrifice of the Creator more so than a victim of Covenant.

Do you think the creator knew what TC would do?

SRD's remarks in the GI about Lord Foul's and the Creator's planning abilities vis-a-vis prescience would bear on this question.

Avatar wrote:Welcome again.

Interesting post indeed. I certainly think that the refining fire of his guilt contributed in a large way toward his eventual triumph, if in no other way than it forged him into the person he became later in the series, perhaps even only in the 2nd Chrons.

The below, I think, is a particularly interesting way of looking at it:

lomillialor wrote:As such, I think Lena was more a victim or sacrifice of the Creator more so than a victim of Covenant.

Do you think the creator knew what TC would do?

--A

Yes.

After all, he chose Covenant despite him being a leper. So therefore it was probably BECAUSE he was a leper he was chosen, and any creator worth her salt would know that numbed nerves + hurtloam = sudden and uncontrollable potency.

And yes, Elena is the main person I had in mind regarding the ripple effects of the rape (though there were many more).

It's almost as if the Creator had to find a way to make TC angry and unapproachable (Dont Touch Me) even more than a leper might be so that his angst and anger would be heightened so he could channel it and use it to evoke Wild Magic. And what better way to make someone angry than to make him hate himself and hate the way so many people treated him disdainfully because of his actions (Trell, Atiaran, end others personally affected by the rape).

I never saw him as hating the way that people treated him disdainfully. I thought it was the other way round; he understood that, but hated when people tried to forgive him for his actions (because he was the White Gold Wielder).

Was it to Bannor he said something like "You're the only one that hasn't tried to forgive me"? And he seemed grateful for that.

The Somberlain wrote:I never saw him as hating the way that people treated him disdainfully. I thought it was the other way round; he understood that, but hated when people tried to forgive him for his actions (because he was the White Gold Wielder).

Was it to Bannor he said something like "You're the only one that hasn't tried to forgive me"? And he seemed grateful for that.

But doesn't that seem to go with what I was saying? He hated "himself" for what he did and thus did not want forgiveness.

BY refusing such forgiveness he seemed to keep his inner fires stoked so that he was always ready to use Wild Magic.

Just a theory!

Oh, he hated himself, agreed. But then you said "and hate the way so many people treated him disdainfully because of his actions". I was just saying that I thought he hated the way that people like the Lords - and maybe above all Lena, in TPTP - tried to forgive him for his actions.

The Somberlain wrote:Oh, he hated himself, agreed. But then you said "and hate the way so many people treated him disdainfully because of his actions". I was just saying that I thought he hated the way that people like the Lords - and maybe above all Lena, in TPTP - tried to forgive him for his actions.

OK, gotcha! Good point.

I suddenly got a burning desire to re-read the Chronicles for the first time last week and at the moment, I find myself stalling because of the rape. When I read it the first time I was shocked (and actually I fished through the rest of that omnibus edition until I found Lena's name as, surely, if she comes back later Covenant can make it all better, right?), but I read on and put it behind me fairly quickly.

This time it seems worse because I know it's going to happen and I'm aware of all Donaldson's cues that illustrate how wholesome and innocent Lena is and how Covenent's self-control is being worn away by her. The first time it creeps up on you but now I find myself dreading its approach. I may even skip that chapter if I find I really can't face it.

Strangely, I've never had any problem reading the sequences in which Angus rapes Morn in The Real Story. I can only assume this is because Angus is so obviously depraved and because Morn is already thoroughly wretched by the time we meet her.

Actually I’m a hundred percent the opposite. I actually sat in shock the whole way through The Real Story. I couldn’t believe someone could write something so dark and so deranged.

For the record I was disturbed the first time I read Lena’s rape the first time I read it as a kid around 1980, and when I have reread it. But I never was repulsed enough to stop reading. It’s actually part of the appeal that attracted me to this series. It wasn’t all warm and fuzzy fantasy; it was about a hero that was hated. I found it refreshing. I hope I'm not sounding perverse. Now The Real Story, I almost stopped reading because I felt so guilty reading the book, like I shouldn’t be enjoying a book with such horrible brutality. LOL!

Ellester wrote:Now The Real Story, I almost stopped reading because I felt so guilty reading the book, like I shouldn’t be enjoying a book with such horrible brutality. LOL!

I found Forbidden Knowledge to be much worse than RS. Once, I actually reread the series skipping the first two books ...

Hehe, I often skip large chunks of Forbidden Knowledge when I re-read The Gap.

Just a thought not a judgment:
I read the rape as a metaphor of TC's despite and despair. The act of rape is the most despicable of crimes. The rape of a child even more so. TC has found utter despair in his leprosy he must use the despair to survive. The knowledge that he will never feel again helps him to survive. Then finds himself in a place where he must fight to maintain that level of despair. His sexual attraction to Lena isn't what made him rape her it was his hatred of her for thwarting his much needed despair. He sees his sexual reawakening as an afront to his very survival.

de·spic·a·ble - adj. Deserving of contempt or scorn; vile; worthy only of being despised and rejected.

Nav wrote:The first time it creeps up on you but now I find myself dreading its approach.

Hmm. I actually saw the rape coming a mile off, even the first time, which might be why it didn't horrify me in the way it has some others. It seemed obvious even in the early scenes with TC and Lena that he was probably going to crack and do something appalling. I hoped he wouldn't, but it wasn't a shock when he did.