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Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:38 pm
by Cail
The Modest Gentleman wrote:We can understand the things he says, but not the way he thinks? I don't see why there's a line drawn between the two.
Of course! I can understand the words you type, but I have absolutely zero insight into your motivation.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:41 pm
by ur-bane
Cail wrote:As I've said before, the basic message of the Bible is, "Love each other". Followed by, "Love Me (God)".
That is
not the message I get from the Bible. The message is transposed. Love God first, lest ye not be saved. Loving each other is secondary.
The [alleged] "Ten Commandments" are a prime example. Where in them is "Love each other"?
Nowhere. But, The first 8-10 sentences of the [alleged] Ten Commandments speak of nothing but worshipping God, having no other gods, and then speak of how to worship god.
Exodus 20:6 :
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Not
that love each other, but
that love me.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:42 pm
by Nathan
Avatar's way of saying it was so much better than mine. I'll go with that one too, God is described in the bible as having human emotions.
You don't understand my motivations? I like to think I can understand at least some of yours. Unless I've completely misjudged you.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:56 pm
by Prebe
What I find even more disturbing is the parable that the worst possible sin you can possibly commit is to seek knowledge. If there is another way to understand Eve's sampling of the forbidden fruit, I would like to hear it.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 12:59 pm
by Cail
Nathan, I can guess at your motivation, but I don't know for sure.
ur-bane, I point to all the parables about loving thy neighbor, Christ washing feet, healing lepers, etc, etc. I also submit that I'm telling you what I get from the Bible. And what I get is a message of tolerance and love.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:18 pm
by ur-bane
Cail, that's all New Testament rhetoric. What about the OT, which predates the NT? Are you dismissing it as "obsolete"? Are you saying that only half of the Bible holds any bearing on (y)our life? That in essence, anything pre-dating Christ should be dismissed? Isn't the
entire Bible the [alleged] divinely inspired word of God?
Who are we, then, to judge what parts to follow and what parts to ignore?Why even have it in the Bible in the first place?
But, all things being equal, you have stated your case clearly as the message
you get from the Bible. I can't argue with that.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:23 pm
by Avatar
Good points all, This is shaping up to be very interesting. I gotta go, but I look forward to carrying on tomorrow. I agree iwth Ur-Bane. The message is transposed. Love and obey god before you love each other.
And great interpretation of the apple story Prebe. Knowledge is dangerous, because that leads to questions.
Outta here. Have a good one all.
--A
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:32 pm
by Cail
The OT is absolutely not obsolete, but Christ certainly did away with several of the "old" ways (Levitical Law, for instance).
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:40 pm
by Prebe
I still need an alternative interpretation for that apple thing.....
An yes, I agree
iwth Ur-bane's post too Avatar
Ur-bane wrote:Who are we, then, to judge what parts to follow and what parts to ignore?Why even have it in the Bible in the first place?
Still waiting for that 2nd Ed.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:45 pm
by ur-bane
But did he? Was it truly Christ that did that, or the men who told us that Christ was the Son of God, and therefore God Himself?
The Bible follows the same pattern as every other form of control. The initial motivation is fear. But fear only works so long before breeding rebellion.
Obviously fear of God was not enough to keep people in line, so a new method of control was needed. That new method was "Love thy neighbor" and "Do unto others as you would have done to you." Noble concepts, but concepts of men nonetheless. And concepts which followed "Love God." After all, that was still part of the message, no? "Love and follow Me (Jesus) and you will be saved."
What we see in the Bible is an evolution of motivation to better suit the mindset of the people at the time.
As it was realized that fear was not motivation enough, or was the wrong kind of motivation, it was decided to combine fear of God with love for each other. But the fear of not loving God is still more prevalent than not loving each other.
I wonder what the third testament will have as motivation in a few thousand years.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:56 pm
by Cail
Interesting, although cynical, way of looking at it.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:14 pm
by ur-bane
Admittedly cynical.
I just think that if the Bible truly were the word of god it would be clear cut, and not open to interpretation of any kind (Including the need to be translated at all--God's word should appear identically to all other languages in content and context in the language which people understand, no?).
Now there's how it should have been done. A Russian opens the book, the text is in perfect Russian. An Englishman opens that very same book, it should be written in perfect English. Same for a Spaniard, or Turkish, or Polish or French or anybody.......
But of course that wouldn't be the case. The Hebrews covered themselves by naming themselves the "Chosen People," so of course it would only be written in Hebrew since that God was for them only in the OT, and all translations would differ.
EDIT: But wouldn't that be a compelling argument? If two people with different native languages looked at the exact same parchment, and saw the written word in their own languages. Heck, that might make a true believer out of even me.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:49 pm
by Nathan
Shame it's physically impossible then. Oh well.
Perhaps a miracle would convince you? Shame they stopped doing those a couple of thousand years ago then. That is unless you count all the little miracles every day that Christians assure me are happening all around them.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:50 pm
by Cybrweez
Prebe wrote:What I find even more disturbing is the parable that the worst possible sin you can possibly commit is to seek knowledge. If there is another way to understand Eve's sampling of the forbidden fruit, I would like to hear it.
Eve was deceived by the serpent. He said, you'll be like God. God said, don't it eat, you'll die. The serpent appealed to Eve's self. She chose self over God. Also, I believe more weight was given to Adam's sin, b/c he was not deceived, he straight up chose Eve over God. (for those that think the Bible teaches its all woman's fault) That's why Paul says sin entered through one man.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:24 pm
by ur-bane
The Modest Gentleman wrote:Shame it's physically impossible then. Oh well.
Perhaps a miracle would convince you? Shame they stopped doing those a couple of thousand years ago then. That is unless you count all the little miracles every day that Christians assure me are happening all around them .
Huh? What exactly is your position here, Nathan? First you chide me with "shame" comments about a physical impossibility, as if it is any more
physically possible for god to be everywhere. WHy is it
physically impossible.....we're talking about god, remember? If his purpose was for us to truly love each other, why not perform a "miracle" of text that reads in the language of the reader? Would it not be more compelling for an event to take place for all time that defied the known laws of physics than a book plagued through the centuries with mistranslations?
Then you chide me with performing miracles, as if all things that defy human explanation are divine. (Which is kind of odd since miracles themselves are not "physically" possible, eh?)
Then you completely absolve yourself of any connection by stating "that Christians assure me are happening all around them."
So, what is your stance, here? (Also--let us not forget that the Bible not being the word of god does not prove/disprove his existence. These are two separate issues.)
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:01 pm
by Prebe
Thank you Cybrweez. I forgot that it was the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. In the Danish translation it is only the tree of knowledge, thus my interpretation.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:53 pm
by SalotHSaR
Cybrweez wrote:Prebe wrote:What I find even more disturbing is the parable that the worst possible sin you can possibly commit is to seek knowledge. If there is another way to understand Eve's sampling of the forbidden fruit, I would like to hear it.
Eve was deceived by the serpent. He said, you'll be like God. God said, don't it eat, you'll die. The serpent appealed to Eve's self. She chose self over God. Also, I believe more weight was given to Adam's sin, b/c he was not deceived, he straight up chose Eve over God. (for those that think the Bible teaches its all woman's fault) That's why Paul says sin entered through one man.
This is quite interesting. First of all, for the benefit of any women readers, I've always been taught that sin was passed on by semen. So the rest of all history is man's fault
This also assists with the vigin birth of a perfect, innocent human being in Jesus Christ.
The serpent, Satan, is like a monkey wrench in the whole machine isn't it? God put the tree in the garden for the sake of freewill and for a time Adam and Eve were perfect immortals. But add Satan to the mix and you get the monkey wrench. It's my belief that 1/3 of the angels chose to follow Satan's rebellion because of Adam and Eve being created. Now that's a great story beginning right there folks!! WOW!
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:55 pm
by Cail
Watch the movie The Prophecy with Christopher Walken and Viggo Mortenson. That's exactly what it's about.
Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:40 pm
by Nathan
ur-bane wrote:The Modest Gentleman wrote:Shame it's physically impossible then. Oh well.
Perhaps a miracle would convince you? Shame they stopped doing those a couple of thousand years ago then. That is unless you count all the little miracles every day that Christians assure me are happening all around them .
Huh? What exactly is your position here, Nathan? First you chide me with "shame" comments about a physical impossibility, as if it is any more
physically possible for god to be everywhere. WHy is it
physically impossible.....we're talking about god, remember? If his purpose was for us to truly love each other, why not perform a "miracle" of text that reads in the language of the reader? Would it not be more compelling for an event to take place for all time that defied the known laws of physics than a book plagued through the centuries with mistranslations?
Then you chide me with performing miracles, as if all things that defy human explanation are divine. (Which is kind of odd since miracles themselves are not "physically" possible, eh?)
Then you completely absolve yourself of any connection by stating "that Christians assure me are happening all around them."
So, what is your stance, here? (Also--let us not forget that the Bible not being the word of god does not prove/disprove his existence. These are two separate issues.)
Sorry, I didn't take the time I should have over that post, it was rushed and ill-though-out, plus sarcasm rarely works like it should when written down.
What I meant was:
Yes, I agree with you, it would be the perfect way for God to prove his all-powerfulness, so why hasn't he? Perhaps because he doesn't exist, perhaps because he values faith more than belief. Personally I believe the former.
The second part of my post was also a sarcastic comment. I don't believe for one moment that anything that happens is divinely inspired. I was poking fun at the idea that God would perform miracles which would be written about in the bible, but then he'd stop performing them, conveniently during the time when I (and others) happen to need them around to convince us of his existence. Why doesn't he do miracles any more, anyway?
The bit about "all the little miracles every day..." was another bit of poking fun. Something that looks to me like a chance bit of luck can be a miracle to a believer, it's a wonder that belief causes a chain reaction of more belief in this way.
Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:02 am
by Lord Mhoram
What God wants God gets God help us all
What God wants God gets
The kid in the corner looked at the priest
And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar
The priest said
God wants goodness
God wants light
God wants mayhem
God wants a clean fight
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
It's only dogma
The alien prophet cried
The beetle and the springbok
Took the Bible from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the lesson in his book
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants peace
God wants war
God wants famine
God wants chain stores
What God wants God gets
God wants sedition
God wants sex
God wants freedom
God wants semtex
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
I'm only joking
The alien comic cried
The jackass and hyena
Took the feather from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the joke down in his book
What God wants God gets
God wants boarders
God wants crack
God wants rainfall
God wants wetbacks
What God wants God gets
God wants voodoo
God wants shrines
God wants law
God wants organized crime
God wants crusade
God wants jihad
God wants good
God wants bad
What God wants God gets
-Roger Waters