Kevin's Watch

but the Balrog scenes were right out of my imagination!]

exactly my thoughts. whatever else i could complain about the movies... man, they did that scene right...

... except the balrog had wings.

Didnt the Balrog in the movie have wings as well?

[The movie got the scene right] ... except the [movie version of the] balrog had wings [which made it not so right].

Oh yeah!
That's a classic misconception about the Balrog.
Even I read it countless times (about 500!) as "it had huge shadowy wings" or whatever, whereas it actually says
"and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"
(which is in a way, much more terrifying).

But anyway, the Gandalf falling and hacking the Balrog as they plummet into the chasm was immortalised by me at age 11 in the form of a short comic-strip story: then that bloody Jackson guy rips it off completely!
I demand my royalties!

You can now see why this movie is so hard to make: nutters like me can't help talking about LOTR, even on a Chronicles forum!

We have a Tolkein forum in the Library.

--A

except the balrog had wings.

Yah, a MUCH debated topic.

R U kidding? Wings are like a cape...it just looks cool, though for the Balrog, their probably not functional. The wings just made the whole fire-breathing gargoyle visual work great!

lomillialor wrote:Here's one idea I have for solving the issue that TC's ring is too similar to Lord of the Rings....

...having TC see the clip from the LoTR as he slips into unconsciousness, it helps create the dream of the Land and the White Gold ring and Wild Magic. The coincidence is now fully resolved. And even then, whether it is a dream is still open to interpretation.

So, instead of running away from the issue. They should acknowledge Tolkien's influence on SRD and Science Fantasy and leave SRD's work as it is.

Covenant's a writer...so it would probably make more sense to see Tolkien in his bookcase at Haven Farms moreso than the films...but I wouldn't do it...too much like Wizard of Oz or Tarabithia...

Back for a moment to the conversation about when Tolkien first invented the idea of the Rings of Power - it was when he was writing the first draft of LOTR. Its pretty well documented in "The Return of the Shadow", where you can read the various stages of his ideas on the matter, including multiple discarded drafts of the Rings poem each with a with different distribution of the Rings. The confusion here might be because the published Silmarillion includes a section called "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", but that part was written after LOTR and included by Christopher Tolkien in the Sil for the sake of completeness.

Oh and on topic I think its absurd to categorize the Chronicles as rip-offs of Tolkien because each has a ring. They don't serve the same function in their respective stories and they are from a plotting standpoint employed in a vastly different manner. Not to mention the fact that there are about a million other things between the two series that aren't anything alike at all. I personally don't recall leper rapists in LOTR, and the number of good-hearted midgets with hairy feet in the Chronicles is pretty low. It just strikes me as a good excuse to not make a film they probably weren't too keen on making in the first place.

King Elessar 8 wrote:Back for a moment to the conversation about when Tolkien first invented the idea of the Rings of Power - it was when he was writing the first draft of LOTR. Its pretty well documented in "The Return of the Shadow", where you can read the various stages of his ideas on the matter, including multiple discarded drafts of the Rings poem each with a with different distribution of the Rings. The confusion here might be because the published Silmarillion includes a section called "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", but that part was written after LOTR and included by Christopher Tolkien in the Sil for the sake of completeness.

Oh and on topic I think its absurd to categorize the Chronicles as rip-offs of Tolkien because each has a ring. They don't serve the same function in their respective stories and they are from a plotting standpoint employed in a vastly different manner. Not to mention the fact that there are about a million other things between the two series that aren't anything alike at all. I personally don't recall leper rapists in LOTR, and the number of good-hearted midgets with hairy feet in the Chronicles is pretty low. It just strikes me as a good excuse to not make a film they probably weren't too keen on making in the first place.

Wait, wait, wait.

Are you suggesting Tolkien invented the magic ring as a plot device?

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

lomillialor wrote:Here's one idea I have for solving the issue that TC's ring is too similar to Lord of the Rings....

...having TC see the clip from the LoTR as he slips into unconsciousness, it helps create the dream of the Land and the White Gold ring and Wild Magic. The coincidence is now fully resolved. And even then, whether it is a dream is still open to interpretation.

So, instead of running away from the issue. They should acknowledge Tolkien's influence on SRD and Science Fantasy and leave SRD's work as it is.

Covenant's a writer...so it would probably make more sense to see Tolkien in his bookcase at Haven Farms moreso than the films...but I wouldn't do it...too much like Wizard of Oz or Tarabithia...

I woudn't do it either. Because if something like that happened, no one watching a movie could ever believe that the Land could be real. The fact that it was built upon something TC happened to be thinking about when he went unconscious cliches it. It does NOT leave it open to interpretation any more.

Ideally, anyone making a movie would man up and be unapologetic about there being a ring. Heck, maybe throw in a "Now that's a ring!" as an homage to LOTR.

Time is going by. Already, I bet, the concern that TCTC is too much like LOTR will be fading. Narnia and [soon] Dark Materials will lackluster the boxoffice, and the urge to find new gold will get stronger.

Time. Give it time.

Wayfriend wrote:

jacob Raver, sinTempter wrote:

lomillialor wrote:Here's one idea I have for solving the issue that TC's ring is too similar to Lord of the Rings....

...having TC see the clip from the LoTR as he slips into unconsciousness, it helps create the dream of the Land and the White Gold ring and Wild Magic. The coincidence is now fully resolved. And even then, whether it is a dream is still open to interpretation.

So, instead of running away from the issue. They should acknowledge Tolkien's influence on SRD and Science Fantasy and leave SRD's work as it is.

Covenant's a writer...so it would probably make more sense to see Tolkien in his bookcase at Haven Farms moreso than the films...but I wouldn't do it...too much like Wizard of Oz or Tarabithia...

I woudn't do it either. Because if something like that happened, no one watching a movie could ever believe that the Land could be real. The fact that it was built upon something TC happened to be thinking about when he went unconscious cliches it. It does NOT leave it open to interpretation any more.

Ideally, anyone making a movie would man up and be unapologetic about there being a ring. Heck, maybe throw in a "Now that's a ring!" as an homage to LOTR.

Time is going by. Already, I bet, the concern that TCTC is too much like LOTR will be fading. Narnia and [soon] Dark Materials will lackluster the boxoffice, and the urge to find new gold will get stronger.

Time. Give it time.

god I hope so. I havent given up hope.

The issue isn't the ring. It was the material it was made from. White Gold just happened to be made into the form of a ring. It could have been a pendent or a label pin.

Rings have symbolized a bonding to marriage or an group or even a country. Rings have been around for thousands of years. So it isn't a ring that is the issue it's White Gold.

Personally, I don't think a script that stays true to the books could work at this point without Crowe...he would bring strength, his name, and a humanist view of TC to the role...so unless someone would rewrite TC to be more human and have something the audience can relate to and hope in within him, something that he could fulfill on an emotional journey through the first trilogy...

..."I Cannot Hope"

Emotional Leper wrote:

King Elessar 8 wrote:Back for a moment to the conversation about when Tolkien first invented the idea of the Rings of Power - it was when he was writing the first draft of LOTR. Its pretty well documented in "The Return of the Shadow", where you can read the various stages of his ideas on the matter, including multiple discarded drafts of the Rings poem each with a with different distribution of the Rings. The confusion here might be because the published Silmarillion includes a section called "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", but that part was written after LOTR and included by Christopher Tolkien in the Sil for the sake of completeness.

Oh and on topic I think its absurd to categorize the Chronicles as rip-offs of Tolkien because each has a ring. They don't serve the same function in their respective stories and they are from a plotting standpoint employed in a vastly different manner. Not to mention the fact that there are about a million other things between the two series that aren't anything alike at all. I personally don't recall leper rapists in LOTR, and the number of good-hearted midgets with hairy feet in the Chronicles is pretty low. It just strikes me as a good excuse to not make a film they probably weren't too keen on making in the first place.

Wait, wait, wait.

Are you suggesting Tolkien invented the magic ring as a plot device?

Not in the slightest. If you like, replace the word "invented" with "introduced".

Put more focus on the fact that white gold is the source of power, downplay the fact that it happens to be in the form of a ring.

ur-Thor wrote:Put more focus on the fact that white gold is the source of power, downplay the fact that it happens to be in the form of a ring.

That's a good point. Since it is white gold that plays the important role...

I don't buy the whole bit SRD goes into about needing the ring worse than Tolkein.

First of all, I challenge the value of symbolic importance of it being a ring. His wedding ring is the reminder of his commitments, Joan and so forth, but that still doesn't explain the need to tie power to it. Not enough to risk being overshadowed by LOTR.

Second of all, he still could have used the ring without it being a ring. Hell, he could have had TC melt his ring down into a bullet and shoot himself with it in a suicide attempt on Haven Farm. Lodged in his head or something, he would still possess white gold, the only white gold, and it would still tie power back to his marriage, commitment, loss and so forth.

There's plenty of ways to go without throwing one's hands up and reusing Tolkein's talisman. I think the story is too involved, too unique, too real and special to be undermined by LOTR flashbacks.

Now I don't get my movie, the best freaking movie that would have been.

There's a quote from LFB about the ring that I love... bear with me, I'm going from memory here, since my books are at home, and I'm at work.

It's when he's questioned by the Lords, and he rips open his shirt, exposing his ring.

"I can't bloody use it!" he cried, as if it were a talisman of power and not a symbol of his marriage.

(I'm not 100% certain of the rest, but I am positive about the "as if it were.")

No matter how much Covenant wanted to believe he had power, he couldn't escape the fact that he was a leper, and that the ring was a symbol of his loss, not his strength.

No matter how you look at it, the fact that it's his wedding ring is fundamentally important to the story. Any other ring wouldn't do, even if it were made of depleted uranium.