Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2003 12:24 pm
bump
to compliment a current discussion. 
Kevin's Watch
Official Discussion Forum for the works of Stephen R. Donaldson
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Why are there 2 creation stories?
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Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:21 pm
bump! to compliment a current discussion.
to compliment a current discussion. Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:41 am
I think the missing piece to this discussion is how the stories of creation symbolize the subconscious. Afterall, this entire "other" realm seems to be SDR's clever way of turning his main characters' minds into a fantasy realm.
I suppose the Worm could be our body, first an empty feeding machine-like fetus growing until the touch of the Creator (God?) brings the spirit being nurtured within to life.
)An interesting note... we are infact "made from stars", because all life began with the basic Hydrogen components that come from created stars.)
From our bodies grows our mind, the Land. Peopling the land are all the facets of our personality. The energy of our Ranyhyn, the urge of destruction in sandgorgons, the power of intellect and spiritual discovery in the Lords and Unfettered, etc.
Then ofcourse there is the Despiser, our dark sides. And white magic, the secret power of self-actualization and passion.
Anyhoo, any ideas on how else the creation could fit into all that?
I suppose the Worm could be our body, first an empty feeding machine-like fetus growing until the touch of the Creator (God?) brings the spirit being nurtured within to life.
)An interesting note... we are infact "made from stars", because all life began with the basic Hydrogen components that come from created stars.)
From our bodies grows our mind, the Land. Peopling the land are all the facets of our personality. The energy of our Ranyhyn, the urge of destruction in sandgorgons, the power of intellect and spiritual discovery in the Lords and Unfettered, etc.
Then ofcourse there is the Despiser, our dark sides. And white magic, the secret power of self-actualization and passion.
Anyhoo, any ideas on how else the creation could fit into all that?
Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:57 pm
maybe donaldson made a mistake. And that's why he has stopped answering question about the creator... because the simple fact might be: he can't answer them!
Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2004 1:52 am
The separate creation stories have always confused me. I agree that they give Chronicles greater depth. It is obvious that the story of the Worm has some accuracy (the damn thing almost woke up, after all) and the Land definitely has a "Creator."
I believe the explanation given above that the Creator caused the Worm to become the Earth makes the most sense. Considering SRD's background in Christian fundamentalism, it is likely that he could have a similar opinion regarding the Biblical creation story and Darwinian evolution.
I believe the explanation given above that the Creator caused the Worm to become the Earth makes the most sense. Considering SRD's background in Christian fundamentalism, it is likely that he could have a similar opinion regarding the Biblical creation story and Darwinian evolution.
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 3:25 pm
I haven't finished TOT yet, but I think it add realism to see that every race/creature has its own Creation story and/or Prophesy about their future. Their story doesn't have to be true... it's just that certain facts may support their story in such a way that it may appear to be true -- or be ambiguous enough that they can never be proven false.
For me it reinforces that the races/creatures have a history as opposed to just being a plot points.
For me it reinforces that the races/creatures have a history as opposed to just being a plot points.
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2004 10:44 pm
My God, it's full of stars!
Speaking of stars, worms, and creation....
As I was re-reading this last time i had a thought
1. The Wyrm/Wurd/Wird thingy ate the "living" stars
2. The stars inside caused the Wyrm to become stationary and caused a "crust to grow" - ie the Land as we know it.
3. The Elohim are EarthPower incarnate.
4. Towards the end of the Elmfest (whatever it was called) Linden and all the company along with the Elohim were (apparently) catapulted into space (or had a vision of such) where Elohim became points of light.
Conclusion =====> The Elohim ARE the stars that the Wyrm ate. They are the children of the Creator, trapped within the Arch of Time.
Problem with this is why wouldn't the Elohim want the Arch destroyed? Then they could reunite with their Father/Creator.
Apparently the Giants and Elohim have the same creation story - except the Giants add giant fish as spawn of the worm. I'm sure the Haruchai have their own creation story - I'm sure it deals with some fallen uber-Haruchai in a pitched battle with the emotionless, stoic Creator. The stars are the drops of blood that are flung off in the battle, and the Land is a tattered piece of flesh that drops from the Creator when the fallen uber-Haruchai bites his ear or something.
Where do the Ravers fit in?
SS
Wow...OF COURSE! HAHAHAHHAHAHA! GENIUS!Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:32 am
Why don't you post that to Donaldson? 
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:47 pm
I don't think the Elohim are the actual children of the Creator.
Rather, they are the direct living power of the stars/children digested and transformed by the Worm; seeped out with everything else on the Earth.
That may explain the discrepencies mentioned before.
Rather, they are the direct living power of the stars/children digested and transformed by the Worm; seeped out with everything else on the Earth.
That may explain the discrepencies mentioned before.
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:56 pm
Hmmm... maybe this will be made clear in the Last Chronicles.
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:09 pm
The stars are the drops of blood that are flung off in the battle, and the Land is a tattered piece of flesh that drops from the Creator when the fallen uber-Haruchai bites his ear or something.
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:51 pm
Remember this also, in LFB:
But what's especially intriguing is that this story may be a bridge between the Creator myth and the Wyrm myth.
This is so similar to the story of the Wyrm of the World's end, even down to the fact that it is a Giant's story, that the differences become rather intriguing."Ah, Stone and Sea! Do you know the old lore legend of the Wounded Rainbow, Thomas Covenant? It is said that in the dimmest past of the Earth, there were no stars in our sky. The heavens were a blankness which separated us from the eternal universe of the Creator. There he lived with his people and his myriad bright children, and they moved to the music of play and joy.
"Now, as the ages spired from forever to forever, the Creator was moved to make a new thing for the happy hearts of his children. He descended to the great forges and cauldrons of his power, and brewed and hammered and cast rare theurgies. And when he was done, he turned to the heavens, and threw his mystic creation to the sky-and, behold! A rainbow spread its arms across the universe.
"For a moment, the Creator was glad. But then he looked closely at the rainbow-and there, high in the shimmering span, he saw a wound, a breach in the beauty he had made. He did not know that his Enemy,
the demon spirit of murk and mire that crawled through the bowels of even his universe, had seen him at work, and had cast spite into the mortar of his creating. So now, as the rainbow stood across the heavens, it was marred.
"In vexation, the Creator returned to his works, to find a cure for his creation. But while he labored, his children, his myriad bright children, found the rainbow, and were filled with rejoicing at its beauty. Together, they climbed into the heavens and scampered happily up the bow, dancing gay dances across its colors. High on the span, they discovered the wound. But they did not understand it. Chorusing joy, they danced through the wound, and found themselves in our sky. This new unlighted world only gladdened them the more, and they spun through the sky until it sparkled with the glee of play.
"When they tired of this sport, they sought to return to their universe of light. But their door was shut. For the Creator had discovered his Enemy's handiwork--the cause of the wound-and in his anger his mind had been clouded. Thoughtless, he had torn the rainbow from the heavens. Not until his anger was done did he realize that he had trapped his children in our sky. And there they remain, stars to guide the sojourners of our nights, until the Creator can rid his universe of his Enemy, and find a way to bring his children Home.
But what's especially intriguing is that this story may be a bridge between the Creator myth and the Wyrm myth.
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 8:58 pm
Hmmm... wouldn't the Creator be ticked-off if the Worm ate his children. LOL - BTW, your theory makes the Elohim Worm droppings!!!! I kinda like thinking of them that way (apologies to Infelice!!)Krilly wrote:I don't think the Elohim are the actual children of the Creator.
Rather, they are the direct living power of the stars/children digested and transformed by the Worm; seeped out with everything else on the Earth.
That may explain the discrepencies mentioned before.
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 9:23 pm
I also want to plop in my unremarked idea from the other thread.
There are people who believe that God created our world, it's just that he did it rather indirectly, by creating a whole bunch of physics, igniting a big bang, and letting it simmer for 4.5 billion years.
Likewise, perhaps the Creator created the Earth rather indirectly; first he created this big Wurm ...
There are people who believe that God created our world, it's just that he did it rather indirectly, by creating a whole bunch of physics, igniting a big bang, and letting it simmer for 4.5 billion years.
Likewise, perhaps the Creator created the Earth rather indirectly; first he created this big Wurm ...
Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2004 11:48 pm
SRD is always saying in response to questions about the world of the Land that unless it directly impinges on the plot, then it doesn't have much of an answer. It seems obvious that the second creation myth didn't exist in SRD's mind until he wrote the second chronicles, and that it only came into existence as a kind of intellectual framework for that particular plot. The fact that it may or may not contradict the Creator creation story probably didn't enter his mind.
To be fair, Donaldson isn't the best fantasy author in terms of his world-building skills - he's no Tolkien or Jordan. But I don't think he would claim or want to be: world-building is of secondary importance to him.
Having said all that, I've just had a thought: perhaps the existence of the second creation story represents the presence of another 'real world' person in the Land - ie, Linden. If so, then logically (and logic may not be a good guide) the two stories should reflect the two characters in some way.
To be fair, Donaldson isn't the best fantasy author in terms of his world-building skills - he's no Tolkien or Jordan. But I don't think he would claim or want to be: world-building is of secondary importance to him.
Having said all that, I've just had a thought: perhaps the existence of the second creation story represents the presence of another 'real world' person in the Land - ie, Linden. If so, then logically (and logic may not be a good guide) the two stories should reflect the two characters in some way.
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 12:45 am
Think of it this way: How many creation theories are there in our world? It adds to the realism of the Land.
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:34 am
The thing that annoys me, is that SRD is avoiding these creation questions... I think he's realised he's made a mistake, and can't answer for it... either that, or it will be answered in the Third Chronicles and he doesn't want anything to be given away.Melenkurion wrote:SRD is always saying in response to questions about the world of the Land that unless it directly impinges on the plot, then it doesn't have much of an answer. It seems obvious that the second creation myth didn't exist in SRD's mind until he wrote the second chronicles, and that it only came into existence as a kind of intellectual framework for that particular plot. The fact that it may or may not contradict the Creator creation story probably didn't enter his mind.
To be fair, Donaldson isn't the best fantasy author in terms of his world-building skills - he's no Tolkien or Jordan. But I don't think he would claim or want to be: world-building is of secondary importance to him.
Having said all that, I've just had a thought: perhaps the existence of the second creation story represents the presence of another 'real world' person in the Land - ie, Linden. If so, then logically (and logic may not be a good guide) the two stories should reflect the two characters in some way.
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:44 pm
Perhaps he just doesn't understand why we anally retentive fanboys want to know everything about the Land's history down to what colour underpants the creator was wearing when he made the Land.
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:52 pm
Didn't you see that question in the GI? They were grey boxers. Foul wears tighty-whities.
Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:03 pm
LOL!