What would you have done?

Post by **lucimay** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:29 pm

thanks, Loremaster. i LOVED this series! great characters, gripping action sequences, excellent "hard" sci-fi! just loved it.

Post by **Revan** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:48 pm

Lucimay wrote:
Sorus wrote:That is the age-old question of the series.

Did anyone's punishment/redemption/demise pay for their crimes?

No, I didn't like what she did to Pup. But I think that forcing him to endure her own personal nightmare, and then the destruction of the Lab were what finally drove her to do the right thing.

Was it too late? Was too many damage done?

I don't think anything could 'make up' for the destruction she caused.

But in the end, she did the right thing.

As for heroes and bad guys, I think almost every character in the series was a little of both.
i agree with Sorus' post one hundred percent. and i am glad that Sorus Chatelaine took the opportunity for redemption. i think the things she did for the Amnion took a toll on her soul, as they would most human beings. i think the futility of her postition caused her to find a redemptive answer for her and her crew. i don't think she ever LIKED working for the Amnion and being under their control, who would. and i'm certain, like Angus, circumstances in her life shaped the person she was. in the end, she chose to "over-ride" the "programming" of her life experience and find what Morn called "a better answer."

That was an excellent post. Spot on... I believe that she did indeed find a better answer, as you said...

No-one would enjoy being made to do something in that wau... denied your humanity if you don't do as you're told. It would be a terrible to live... bbut she chose to find a different fate, and met it well.

Post by **lucimay** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:47 am

a better answer

i feel like i owe Donaldson a debt of graditude for that
it's so simple and so complete

a better answer

Post by **Elfgirl** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:03 am

Alas, we lost a plethora of good posts thanks to that Turkish twat. And I can't remember what I wrote here...something about being gutted about the way Nick was killed...and how I felt sorry for the poor boy.

yeah, that was about it. *shrugs*

Post by **drew** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:59 pm

Elfgirl: I realize that you liked Nicks charactor, but in the essence of the story, was there any better plan for him than to die?

He did his deed that he wanted to do; but he couldn't even do that without killing an innocent.

Let me put it this way:
If Nick lived, if he got of Sourus's ship before it crashed, would he have ben the same person?
How would he have reacted to everything else that was going on?
He may hav even stopped Warden from going to HO.
He would have deffinatly been a changed person, not the same bucccaneering Nick that you fell for.

Post by **Sorus** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:07 pm

If Nick had fulfilled his need for revenge, would he have had anything left to live for?

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:11 pm

Sorus wrote:If Nick had fulfilled his need for revenge, would he have had anything left to live for?

Good point; a man defined by his capacity for revenge and capacity for reassurance will not long last when one is exhausted or cut off.

Post by **drew** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:11 pm

That's what I'm saying...if he had killed you (sourus) he would have ceaced to be the Nick that he was.

Post by **lucimay** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:28 pm

Sorus wrote:If Nick had fulfilled his need for revenge, would he have had anything left to live for?

well he would have had to reassess a bit...but i tell ya...knowing Nick, i think he woulda gone after Morn once he done in Sorus...and then Mikka...and by THAT time, i'm sure some OTHER woman would have earned enough scorn to keep him going...

Post by **Loredoctor** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:31 pm

Lucimay wrote:
Sorus wrote:If Nick had fulfilled his need for revenge, would he have had anything left to live for?
well he would have had to reassess a bit...but i tell ya...knowing Nick, i think he woulda gone after Morn once he done in Sorus...and then Mikka...and by THAT time, i'm sure some OTHER woman would have earned enough scorn to keep him going...

But Sorus was the prime-woman.

Post by **lucimay** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:41 pm

Loremaster wrote:
Lucimay wrote:
Sorus wrote:If Nick had fulfilled his need for revenge, would he have had anything left to live for?
well he would have had to reassess a bit...but i tell ya...knowing Nick, i think he woulda gone after Morn once he done in Sorus...and then Mikka...and by THAT time, i'm sure some OTHER woman would have earned enough scorn to keep him going...
But Sorus was the prime-woman.

yeah but...guys like Nick, they'll use whatever is necessary to keep going. there were, after all, only 3 options open to him, story-linewise

a) live and change
b) die
c) live and keep going (meaning NOT change)

what's your guess based on what you know about Nick.
the above is MY guess based on what i know about Nick. i think he would have continued to be Nick until SOMEbody killed him for it.
thus my scenario.

Post by **Sorus** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:57 am

Nick sealed his own fate when he sold the original Captain's Fancy's data. His expectation that they would accept him as crew after 'humiliating' them was naive to the point of not being believable. Nick may or may not have been the man who never lost, but he was certainly the man who got whatever he wanted. He used Sorus as an excuse for not taking responsibility for his actions. While she was far from blameless, he was a criminal before he even met her.
By the end of Chaos and Order he had reached a point of no return no matter what happened. If I'd had any sympathy for him, I would have lost it when he killed Sib.

Post by **lucimay** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:12 am

Sorus wrote:Nick sealed his own fate when he sold the original Captain's Fancy's data. His expectation that they would accept him as crew after 'humiliating' them was naive to the point of not being believable. Nick may or may not have been the man who never lost, but he was certainly the man who got whatever he wanted. He used Sorus as an excuse for not taking responsibility for his actions. While she was far from blameless, he was a criminal before he even met her.
By the end of Chaos and Order he had reached a point of no return no matter what happened. If I'd had any sympathy for him, I would have lost it when he killed Sib.

exactly.

and I, for one, never HAD any sympathy for him.

Post by **Elfgirl** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:03 am

Ah, OK, OK...I geddit. I 'fell' for the wrong character!

All of the above scenarios make sense, given Nick's basic character flaws. I still feel sorry for the kid who had such high hopes and dreams, and having them crushed so completely. Many people react the same way (albeit in less bloodthirsty terms!) - humanity's need for revenge is an inherent character flaw in the species. Ask anyone if they had the chance to 'get back' at someone who hurt them deeply and most people would jump at it. I sympathise with Nick because I've been hurt badly enough to want revenge too (not death, so much as reciprocal pain!)

I dare anyone to say they'd feel otherwise.

Post by **lucimay** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 3:45 am

ha!

i KNEW you'd come clean about your REAL reasons for your sympathetic response to Nick!! i had to do the same thing about my reasons for my sympathies toward Angus. welcome back to the Watch, Elfgirl!!

$$$$$

Post by **Elfgirl** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:33 am

Lucimay wrote:

ha! i KNEW you'd come clean about your REAL reasons for your sympathetic response to Nick!! i had to do the same thing about my reasons for my sympathies toward Angus. welcome back to the Watch, Elfgirl!! $$$$$

Yeh, thanks Lucimay - good to BE back!

But don't forget, my true reason will always be that Nick's a hot-lookin', smartarse bad-boy - my weakness!

Post by **Loredoctor** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:43 am

Elfgirl wrote:I dare anyone to say they'd feel otherwise.

I can't say that anyone has ever hurt me bad; I don't let people get that close to me, anyway or otherwise. Still, as much as I'd like to rationalise it, revenge is too costly. Success is all the revenge I need. And I'm going to have it.

Post by **Elfgirl** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:28 am

Very positive attitude you have, Lore. I must have some leftover genetic memory of my times during the Spanish Inquisition, and can't seem to put it all behind me....

Post by **Loredoctor** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:25 am

Elfgirl wrote:Very positive attitude you have, Lore. I must have some leftover genetic memory of my times during the Spanish Inquisition, and can't seem to put it all behind me....

Phew. I had thought my response may have been rude to you; in that I was dismissing your attitude. Not at all. I am glad.

Post by **Elfgirl** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:03 am

Loremaster wrote: Phew. I had thought my response may have been rude to you; in that I was dismissing your attitude. Not at all. I am glad.

Meh. I think everyone has a right to their opinion. Who am I to say which is the right way? Put a bunch of people in a room together and everyone will have a difference of opinion. Those that share similar outlooks will gravitate toward each other, then they'll take sides, then (after copious amounts of alcohol) a fight will ensue.

Tis the law of the jungle. We will evolve eventually (or be mutated!)

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

What would you have done?