Kevin's Watch

It's funny that movies where hitmen decide that after killing countless people to renounce their way (PulpFiction/Get Shorty/Assasions/GrossePoint Blank) no one has a problem.

But if a Movie were made were a guy tried to redeem his sin of raping someone by eventually saving their entire earth people would be walking out of the theater.

I think the Chronicles are inherently R-rated and trying to tone them down would do violence to the story. (Perhaps a non-graphic but sufficiently brooding art film treatment would also do the job, but it would be even less suitable for children in its own art film way.) Thus we get the problem of what to do with the subject of rape. A PG-13 or something even lower would have to dance around the subject, in effect trivializing the rape, or drop it altogether. Both options would have huge detrimental effects on the integrity of the story.

Despite elements like brave Lords and Giants and the beauty of the Land, the Chronicles are very dark stories at heart and deserve to be made into dark movies. Try to count the genocides.

And welcome to the paradox of the film! Gotta have the rape because it's so important to the story so the film has to be R-rated, but.....In order to make money, it's gotta be PG-13 so the kiddies can see it.

I think there's no way the movie ever gets made, and if it does, no one here will want to see it, 'cause it'll have to be butchered.

I've said this before, but I think the movies should be made cheaply enough that they don't need to strive for the maximum potential audience in order to be profitable. The more mature audiences need movies too and everyone shouldn't try to appeal to the same demographic as everyone else. I think there is a sweet spot between el cheapo and Hollywood blockbuster where you can have a good-looking film while keeping the special effects budget from becoming a hopeless money sink.

For example, the original Alien was filmed all of those years ago with the old technology (should be cheap nowadays), but it's still great. If it was filmed today it would probably feature prominently a CGI alien and would be worse for it than the original where the alien puppet was used sparingly for maximum effect. Due to its superior art design I think the original Alien is one of the best-looking films I have seen, and that's because of H. R. Giger's artistic talent, not because of computer effects. (The situation was turned upside down in Alien 4, without Giger, with big effects, and the result was BAD and UGLY, to say nothing of the plot.)

And Alien was R too...

Agreed, agreed, and agreed.

But, they don't make movies like that anymore. And they don't make movies that cheaply anymore either. And the public (God love 'em) doesn't want to see movies made like that anymore.

Alien cost 11 million bucks and made about 60 million bucks. By today's standards, that's not sucess.

If someone's goint to make the series into movies, the target will be LOTR. The bar's been set, and it's ridiculously high.

Not to mention, there'd have to be 10 movies....

I never thought there would be a Chronicles movie. The rape just made it too confronting for the mainstream. I remember being confronted myself. Mind you I was only 10 in '82.

IMHO you cannot portray the series accurately without the lead character seeing Despite in himself. If done properly the TC actor should be a shoo-in for the "Best Male Actor" at the Oscars.

ditto for Atiaran and "Best (Supporting?) Female Actor"

I only learned about the possibility that a movie would be made a coupla hours ago.

Quite stunned, to be honest. But if it is done right the TC actor and the director will be legends in my book.

(About to search the rest of the site as to whether this might actually happen and who those actors might be)

Maybe they could change Covenant's motivation for raping Lena a bit or at least try to explain it better? I don't know if people can relate to his perspective of "not believing the Land is real" when they see the Land with their own eyes on the big screen. That was a problem for me when I first read the Chronicles. I think I never really understood how he could not believe.

Maybe they could have a flashback to the moment when Joan leaves him, or they could show how other women reacted to him when he was "the leper". You could see them laughing at him, see Joan's reaction, her disgust. And all these things could kind of blend together like a montage in the moment of the rape, explaining why Lena's innocence and trust enraged him or felt like mockery. The rape itself shouldn't be shown I think, but when Covenant starts feeling serious guilt they could use short flashbacks again, maybe just her face and what she looked like afterwards. (That's why I think it should be a really good actress not just some playmate).

I think it could be done. They showed how Dracula impaled all these people in "Bram Stoker's Dracula" and had that strange sex scene with Lucy. Still, the love story with Mina was believable.

I hope the idea comes across, I'm having a "bad English day".

I have read that the Movie has been on and off again . In SRD's Gradual Interview, he says he has been paid for the film rights, but doubts it will be made.

Has this changed? Is the movie now on again?

I agree with Nerdanel; I'd love to see the movie made as it should be, to try to capture the original book's darkness. If they try the LOTR route, then I think most of the real depth and meaning, and Covenant's entire character, will be lost.

And I don't want that in my head, no way.

Torrent wrote:Maybe they could change Covenant's motivation for raping Lena a bit or at least try to explain it better? I don't know if people can relate to his perspective of "not believing the Land is real" when they see the Land with their own eyes on the big screen. That was a problem for me when I first read the Chronicles. I think I never really understood how he could not believe.

The answer, IMO, and the Challenge, is to make the Land real but at the same time so impossible that even the audience thinks that it must be a dream. Perhaps there's too much precidence so that fantasic sights not of this earth and impossible magic won't convince anyone, though. So how to do it. Are there any subtle ways to hint that it might be a dream, without going all out, so that the audience is on the edge themselves, not sure if it is real, not sure if it is not?

What if ... What if the Land were portrayed as dreamlike (not animated, mind), until the rape. Then when TC wakes up by the stream, all of a sudden everything is very real. The audience is taken by surprise. The consequences of TCs actions suddenly seem more alarming. But the TC on the screen doesn't seem to notice the difference. So the audience begins to get mad at him.

I don't know ... that may be a cheat somehow.

I am not for changing anything, but enhancing a point made, well that's different.

It would have to be very subtle, like the book, in order to have the same effect. I do not like the idea of the dreamlike sequences unitl the rape, but confess I cannot think of another way. One heck of a screen writer / director would be required, that is certain.

Maybe the solution is to put forward the notion that Covenant is prone to such hallucinations, maybe that his medications are potentially causing it? I don't know if this is ever said in the book, so I don't know.

this point is fundamental to the book.

Hello Wayfriend

I don't know how they could create the impression that the land is not real. If people know that it's a fantasy movie, they're ready to suspend disbelief quickly. But maybe they could use a technique that is so point-of-view that we can understand that it's unbelievable to HIM.

But maybe it's not even necessary that the audience believes (with TC) that the Land isn't real. Maybe it's more important that they understand why TC is afraid to believe in the Land.

Take the whole hurtloam experience, for example. Maybe the Land could have a different 'look' afterwards. More intense colours & sounds. Different music. In a way it should feel more real than reality because it's more intense. That's especially important if they want to film the Second Chronicles, too.

Maybe TC could really get into a really confused state, like a drug experience. And he could sort of 'wake up to reality' after the rape.

Or he doesn't, but it's clear to the audience that 'this is real now', as you said. I think that's a good idea. And if the audience gets mad a Covenant - why not?

iquestor wrote:
Maybe the solution is to put forward the notion that Covenant is prone to such hallucinations, maybe that his medications are potentially causing it? I don't know if this is ever said in the book, so I don't know.

We were posting at the same time...

What about the hurtloam/aliantha experience and the different percipience in the Land. Don't you think this could be compared to a hallucination?

Torrent wrote:
What about the hurtloam/aliantha experience and the different percipience in the Land. Don't you think this could be compared to a hallucination?

Yes I do; kind of like the old Wizard of Oz movie: It began B&W, but went to color when Dorothy entered Oz. Nowaday's thats cheesey, but back then, it blew them away, they weren't used to seeing color.

I think that the effect of aliantha and hurtloam could be used to create an audience's shift in perception of the Land that at leasts gets across that the Land is real, and Covenant's actions will have immediate conseqences to him...

And the audience should be mad at him!!! but yet sympathize at the same time on some level.

We need Peter Jackson's talent, but SRD's vision.

Maybe it's enough if Covenant protests from time time, you're not real, this is all a dream. I don't think he does, aloud, in the book, before the rape anyway. But that would be one of those changes that would need to be made.

Maybe a few scenes with Covenant giving things the standard "real test"?

In Lena's home...

LENA: He fought with a gray cloud.

TRELL: [appraises COVENANT] Which was the victor?

COVENANT: [Walks up and pokes TRELL with a finger.] [distractedly] Uh ... I lived through it.

But you'd need to be careful ... hallucinations are not the same as dreams! If you suspect you're hallucinating, you might try to see if you can wave your hand through it. If you're dreaming, you expect something else.

I like the idea of making it all seem like a dream before the rape.

I suppose I would go about it like this:
If you ever played a game called Guild Wars then you'll know it's graphics are rather unique in that everything seems very bright, but soft. If you haven't played it, I really don't know how else to explain it to you. Everything, like I said, is really soft, almost hazy. It's almost dream-like. They could apply a similar effect before the rape, and then after the rape have the land look like any normal movie would. It would be really subtle, but I think that would get the job done.

Here's one small thing that would make it seem more like a dream - showing Covenant's collapse. In the books we're inside his head, we see a car coming and then everything goes black. If the film actually shows him falling unconscious in the street, people will be more likely to think it's a dream when you move on to the parts in the Land.

Not Zen wrote:I like the idea of making it all seem like a dream before the rape.

I suppose I would go about it like this:
If you ever played a game called Guild Wars then you'll know it's graphics are rather unique in that everything seems very bright, but soft. If you haven't played it, I really don't know how else to explain it to you. Everything, like I said, is really soft, almost hazy. It's almost dream-like. They could apply a similar effect before the rape, and then after the rape have the land look like any normal movie would. It would be really subtle, but I think that would get the job done.

Click on the Link in my signiture and it'll take you to the Games Forum where there is a thread on Guild Wars, I and a few others play it.

Murrin wrote:Here's one small thing that would make it seem more like a dream - showing Covenant's collapse. In the books we're inside his head, we see a car coming and then everything goes black. If the film actually shows him falling unconscious in the street, people will be more likely to think it's a dream when you move on to the parts in the Land.

I also think that is an excellent idea. A "fade to black" could really put the question in your mind of wether or not it was real.


Warmark, I'll check it out

There is no true "fade to black", however--the redlights of the cop car turn into Drool's eyes! (then I'd know it was dream! )

Whoa...that would look awesome danlo.

--A