Berek Halfhand = Thomas Covenant

[xp_spec]

IF TC is Berek then maybe the whole series is far from over...

[Skyweir]

From memory .. Kasreyn states in TOT somewhere that gold is found in Brathairealm .. and no where else in the earth .. I will find the chapter he tells the questors this and return ..

but not white gold .. though as I said earlier .. a man of his talent who works with gold and placing an impurity in it .. surely could have come up with white gold ..

[Coercri]

I've wondered about that as well. It has been my impression that the land & the world that contains it has not dived deeply into what we consider technology simply because there has been no need, not because it was inhibited to them. Creating an alloy is not that difficult of a task, you would think that someone as ambitious as Kasreyn would have been able to accomplish it.

-Coercri

[Tohrm]

Unless there is a stricture against creating an alloy. We hear them talk about steel, and other pure metals, but I do not recall any metals formed by being an alloy even being mentioned. Such as bronze which is an amalgam of two metals. Brass and maybe tin? I can't remember.

[Skyweir]

yet Kasreyn states that his art is centred on gold and placing an impurity in it .. so maybe he has experimented with platinum .. or someother alloy ..

[Tohrm]

But the question is just how much of an impurity? I think that it takes about a 50/50 mixture of gold with platinum to make white gold. But then again, has anybody seen platinum mentioned?

[amanibhavam]

This whole gold/white gold problem is really a very intriguing one. How did they know about these metals if theye were non-existent in the Earth? How did everybody instantly recognize Covenant's white gold ring if such an alloy was only mentioned in ancient lore? How can a metal alloy be the arch of time?
Maybe there can be some answers. Maybe when Atiaran said gold was not to be found in the Earth she meant the Land only - that would explain how Kasreyn got it after all (or maybe good old SRD was just inconsistent in this matter )) Maybe all people recognized white gold because of their helath-sense and penetrating vision. Maybe white gold was the Arch of Time in a hermetic sense - a token, a symbol, as for instance quicksilver for the medieval alchemists was the symbol of the forces of the planet Mercure. That would explain why Covenant really was the white gold - his ring was only a vessel, a means to concentrate the power his being represented.

Still, there are too much "ifs" in this matter.

[Bannor]

Very intuitive thinking, Amanibhavam ! You've raised a good question. How did they recognize white gold? And I think your "maybes" have a lot of merit.

[fightingmyinstincts]

__White gold being nowhere in the Land, but Bhrathairealm is outside the Land. So it could be there. I think.

__I don't think Berek had a white gold ring, 'cos it's not in the Land. I think he just knew of it. And yah, I think it says somewhere that they could tell it was WG via the health sense. Was this all the points I wanted to make?

It says "He was regarded as the reincarnation of Berek, and his ring was considered a talisman of great power" or some such. I think the and is a separation of two things. And I don't think they used metal at all, only wood and stone, except maybe swords and spearheads. Then they would've had to make alloys, to get steel. An iron sword wouldn't be very good.
I think SRD chose to give TC a resemblance to Berek to emphasize the difference b/t them:Berek lost two fingers in a fight against evil, TC lost his in surgery; he doesn't fight. TC sort of villifies his disease, like it makes him evil, and that losing two fingers to it is not anything like fighting Lord Foul.
Still very interesting, but I think since Berek (or his specter) and TC are present at the same time, that safely concludes that they aren't the same dude. I do think it is possible that Berek is in our world. But maybe not as Berret; he sounds rather disreputable, no?:)

[danlo]

If I was Berek (Berret) lost in our world and couldn't find my way back 2 the Land I might bcome disreputable 2...

[caamora]

I think that if I were Berek lost in this world, I would kill myself! The Land is certainly a better place! Anyway, lets not forget that what the people of the Land used instead of technology was magic. I think that we can all agree that the ring, in and of itself, are nothing. It is the white goldwielder that is the AoT. I think that this is a point that Kasryen didn't catch onto. All I could think as I first read this in TOT was that even if TC gave him the ring, he couldn't use it because TC is the white gold!

[Tohrm]

Fightingmyinstincts brought up the point that Berek just knew of the white gold. I think that is very probable from the standpoint of earth power. What I mean by that is he probably was taught that in his search for lore from the earth itself. The knowledge was there, for whoever could read it. But until Berek swore his fealty to the earth, and the earth accepted him, he was not able to read the earth power that was present in the land.

[The Wounded Moose]

So if the white ring is nothing in itself as u say, then if LF had banished TC's ghost as it was said he could(WGW), LF still couldn't have destroyed the AoT?

And further more the AoT wasn't really in danger by anyone other than TC?

Of course that is what Findail had been saying all along...

[danlo]

I'll have 2 check TOT...I'm prob wrong but couldn't totally awakening The Worm have destroyed the Arch as well? Oh well- need 2 do some research...but then again the Worm would destroy the world, so what would b the point of the AofT anyway...duh--guess I'm chasing my own "worm" tail!

[The Creator]

Insofar as creating an alloy... In our Earth, gold is just a metal, not a periapt of power. In the Land's Earth, gold is something else entirely.

Can you imagine trying to melt gold there?!?!?!

[Dromond]

Melting gold in yhe Land? Sure,why not? There were Metalsmiths in the Land. The Lords' staffs had metal heels and I think the Warward had metal swords. (that may need researched to be proven right or wrong) But melting metals is not unknown in the Land. And gold melts easier than most.

[The Creator]

The properties of gold in our Earth are radically different than in the Land's Earth.

An analogy might be in Zelazny's Amber. Gunpowder was inert in some shadows of Amber (you could throw it in fire and nothing would happen), but it was volitile in others (like ours).

Gold is special there. I'd think you'd have to handle it VERY carefully!

[Skyweir]

yes you are right ofcourse .. the heels of the staff of lore were said to be metal .. and then there are the swords too!

So metalsmiths must have existed?? though we dont hear of them per se .. do we? We hear of wood lore and stone lore .. but not of metal lore .. though clearly they must have possessed and worked with metals.

Whether gold in the Land was a different kind of substance than gold in our world is never covered in the chronicles .. so I am not too sure about the parrallel to the Amber chrons. .. I wonder if gold is really different in the Creator's 'earth' .. I mean it could be .. but why would it need to be? Rather the effect of white gold is vastly different in the Land than it is in our world .. but the substance and property could be identical.

Afterall .. the white gold TC had was presumably from our world .. and yet it had significant power in the Land. So the power is in the alloy rather than being a different kind of metal to that of our world. *shrug*

[The Creator]

Right, which leads us to believe that the metaphysical laws of existence in the two Earths are different.

Back to Amber, the gunpowder itself didn't changed, but the shadow (read alternate universe) that it was currently in gave it different properties. Without changing a molecule of the gunpowder.

So while you could wear/shape/melt gold or white gold in our universe and never trigger wild magic, doing the exact same thing in the Land could!

[Skyweir]

yes that is more precisely to the point!