Kevin's Watch

Great post Fist. And keep it in your pants Revan and Lore.

--A

Avatar wrote: Great post Fist. And keep it in your pants Revan and Lore.

--A

The women perfer it out. But I'll try.

sgtnull wrote:just passing through.

>whistles<

This is the kind of attack against the religion to which you adhere that you, and the portrayal of religion as for the simple-minded, that you often talk about. This isn't something that has nothing to do with your beliefs that doesn't deserve to become a vehicle for your anger. No need to just pass through this one!

Off hand, though, I'd suggest a pro-religion approach, rather than "Oh yeah? Let's examine what you believe in!!" I think it's more in keeping with Jesus' teachings in the Bible; I think the other approach will throw things off topic instantly, and Insanity will not learn of any reason to change his mind about things; and, just my preference, I prefer supporting my position to attacking the other person's.

Title edited (obviously).

As I've said before, please, no openly antagonistic titles, and something like this really should be labled.

In a thread like this, (almost) anything goes, but Lore's right, Darth. If you're going to be above things, be above things (see Fist's posts for how it's done). And there's also the fact that you have your fair share of what others could consider blasphemous topics, much less posts.

That's all... for now.

Syl wrote:Title edited (obviously).

As I've said before, please, no openly antagonistic titles, and something like this really should be labled.

In a thread like this, (almost) anything goes, but Lore's right, Darth. If you're going to be above things, be above things (see Fist's posts for how it's done). And there's also the fact that you have your fair share of what others could consider blasphemous topics, much less posts.

That's all... for now.

You're right about that. I have no excuse. Nor am i going to try and justify myself. It's in the past, whether it is for you is none of my concern.

Fist: it was a hit & run. there is no debate. just a childish rant meant to inflame. i wanted to acknowledge having read the post. i thought the juvenile tone of the first post spoke volumes of where this was headed. there was no call for debate, no questions, no positions set. where could i go with it? to counter admits that there was some spark of knowledge behind the propisition.

Fisty wrote:While I am convinced that hallucinations and the like exist, I cannot possibly say with any authority that all who claim such experiences are delusional. It is no secret at the Watch that I am extremelly fond of Furls Fire, largely because of her faith that I do not share. Now, if we ignore her faith for a moment, and judge her sanity by anything else we know about her, I can't imagine what cause you would find to diagnose her as anything but perfectly sane, lucid, etc. And if faith alone is sufficient reason in your mind to diagnose someone as insane, then I quite seriously question your logic, morality, and/or sanity.

I love you

If my faith makes me insane...well, then I am insane, because I would rather live in this insanity with God/Jesus in my heart, than live in a state of complete sanity without Them. How empty my heart would be...

Ah...such sweet peace this "insanity" brings me.

And Eric...I have been labeled "nuts" on occasion...for reasons I'm sure are known to you..LOL!

Furls: when i tell people that God has told me not to eat meat, most just accept it. don't know if they are being polite, or looking for escape.
but I do know that i am at ease with what i know.

Cail wrote:Shouldn't we spoiler that for those who haven't read the Bible yet?

ROFL!!!!

Fist,

I don't think "insane" is a good way to describe those with faith (obviously). How do you feel about "illogical"?

sgtnull wrote:God has told me not to eat meat

What? When? He told you personally?

Lord Mhoram wrote:Fist,

I don't think "insane" is a good way to describe those with faith (obviously). How do you feel about "illogical"?

I don't even think that. I see very few objective truths where humanity is concerned, and logic is not one of them. Some may believe in a creator because they find it illogical to think something like the universe could be uncaused. Others think it is illogical to accept that a creator could be uncaused, but the universe could not. In fact, we're discussing things we simply cannot know. The nature of any creator, if there is one, would have to be quite different from the nature of the universe. (At least I think that's a logical assumption.) With nothing else to go on, who can answer the question with certainty? The logic of the answer depends on the person, and I don't see the assumption that there is a creator as illogical.

However, I do know people who believe some incredibly illogical things where religion is concerned. Sometimes, it's out of ignorance, such as the "logical proofs" that evolution could not have happened that I've seen. The "evolution" discussed in these cases bears no resemblance to any theory of evolution science has put forth.

Perhaps the most illogical religious belief I've ever heard of is that the Bible is the very word of God; that, word-for-word, it reads exactly as He wants it to. That belief itself is not the illogical part, it's the proof for that belief: The Bible actually says it is the very word of God. At least some translations of 2 Timothy 3:14-16 say all "scripture" is, and some people believe everything in the Bible, and only everything in the Bible, is true scripture. The illogic of using a passage in the Bible to verify the Bible in this way is... Well, I don't know what to call it.

Fist,

I think "faith" and "logic" are mutually exclusive. There is no logic involved in faith.

Could you explain that? I don't see any reason at all that faith and logic should be mutually exclusive.

What logic is there in believing that a deity that no one can see or speak to influences our daily lives?

Well, I don't personally believe it, but I don't find it illogical. There are any number of things that can't be explained. Not at our current level of technology, and, I'm willing to bet, some will never be answerable. A creator of one sort or another could explain things nicely. Lots of pieces falling into place, as it were. It may not be logical for these people to rule out other possibilities, but what they do believe is not necessarily illogical.

In addition, some people have had experiences that are inarguably of a general supernatural variety, and others have had supernatural experiences of a specific nature. By "inarguably," I mean the experience happened to them, and there is no way to argue against a person's direct experience. It may be illogical for them to ignore these experiences.

But it's faith. By its very definition it defies - and to some extent, is beyond - logical reasoning.

LM, what logic is there in believing that your family loves you? You take it on faith that they're not talking about you behind your back, and that they'll support you when you need them.

By your definition, all human emotion is illogical, because it can't be seen.

Holy crap! Mhoram is a Vulcan!

LOL

Well in all seriousness, doesn't emotion defy logic? If I sacrifice my life for someone I love, is that logical, in its purest form?

Hmmm, wouldn't you say that sacrificing yourself for a greater good is logical (like the end of Wrath of Khan)?

I see the existance of God as the only logical outcome I can come to. I don't find my belief in God to be any less logical than the belief that my wife loves me, or any other theory of how the universe came into existance.