Kevin's Watch

Most people in the land probably did not know what had happened. And the lords may or may not have forgiven him, but they certainly did nothing.

Forgiveness is never inappropriate. It can't be demanded, but, if freely given, who's to say it's wrong? But there's also the matter of who can do the forgiving. In this case, it's not my place, it's Lena's.

Unfortunately, Lena never had the chance to decide whether or not to forgive Covenant. Sure, she says she does, but she's obviously a little off. She knew the extraordinary danger the Land was in, and she knew of Covenant's unique position and unimaginable potential. There was no way she could bring herself to risk EVERYONE by doing anything to Covenant. And so that she wouldn't have to feel the pain and terror of what happened, she forced herself to see things in a way that changed the rape to a much more noble thing.

Fist:

Unfortunately, Lena never had the chance to decide whether or not to forgive Covenant. Sure, she says she does, but she's obviously a little off. She knew the extraordinary danger the Land was in, and she knew of Covenant's unique position and unimaginable potential. There was no way she could bring herself to risk EVERYONE by doing anything to Covenant. And so that she wouldn't have to feel the pain and terror of what happened, she forced herself to see things in a way that changed the rape to a much more noble thing.

Her parents also had a stake in it ... as did Triok and Elena.

Lena and Elena were, to put it frankly, nuts.

Her parents did not forgive Covenant.

Don't forget that it was Covenants focus on surviving his leprosy that made him unable to despair over any situation is why the Creator chose him in the first place. A normal human being put through what he went thru would have commited suicide or gone insane.

Very possible, JD!

i think it also depends on ur meaning of forgiveness. does to forgive TC mean 2 say that it was ok 4 him 2 rape a child, that its all in the past and that everything is ok. if it is then no, he cant b forgiven, bcoz nuthin was ok. lena went mad, with her mother and atiaran and trell and triok and that damn weird ranyhyn thingee elena pretty much did too, triocks life was ruined, atiaran killed herself (in a way), and trell anded up trying 2 desecrate the land.

if however, 2 forgive TC is 2 understandand accept that he raped lena, and some of the reasons y he raped her, then i think he can b forgiven. i think that i can definately understand and accept some of his reasons, but that doesnt mean i agree with them and it doesbt make what he did right.

sum sui generis

variol son

TC can be forgiven, because he was not an evil man. He did not do what he did because he wanted domination, power or anything, he just lost control over himself after some pretty tough times - well, maybe he also to have some revenge on the world - unfortunately it is in the nature of man to direct his/her aggression towards the weaker who cannot defend themselves.

Perhaps the question of whether Covenant can be forgiven is mute; perhaps the question is can Donaldsonbe forgiven for including the rape.
I think Donaldson wrote a rape seen for Covenant to perform to ensure that his protagonist was the perfect anti-hero - good forbid anybody have any sympathy for this wreck of a man who has everything he has ever loved stripped from him Donaldson wants us to focus on Covenant the Unbeliver, not Covenant the Oppressed. Its also something he can use to hit Covenant over the head with any time he starts to feel good about himself.
I know a lot of people that just couldn't get passed the rape of Lena; they put down the book and walked away. Is Donaldson brave for taking that chance, or just foolish? For myself, the moment i finished the rape scene, i felt i had entered uncharted waters; i'd never read a fantasy novel prepared to tackle such an issue in such a gut-wrenchingly painful way. I may not like it, but that scene is part of what makes the Chronicles great.

Earthfriend, very good points! There are those who have put the book down because the rape scene was too intense for them. I think you may have hit the nail on the head. SRD may have put that in to make TC the unbeliever and not the pitiful oppressed man. Great point!

One thought I feel I should mention is the fact of her age - it says she is around 16, which in America means she would be considered a child, but here in the UK she wouldn't be, so I guess the idea wouldn't have as much impact to us than it would have to americans - the crime turns from raping a child to just rape.

12 16 50 it doesn’t matter, A man cut off from human contact and kindness as TC. When healed will do things that would normally turn your stomach.

You do raise good points, Earthfriend, but I would argue...

BRAVE. This book was published in what, '77? Sure, there's been some dark sexual undertones in fantasy before that, but I'm sure that scene alone resulted in more than a handful of SRD's rejection letters.

How far do you think one of the modern fantasy epics would make it if the main character raped somebody less than halfway through the first book? I think the only current fantasy author with the yobbles and skill to pull that scene off credibly would possibly be Martin, and I think even he would have a hard time selling it as the action of one of the main "good guys."

And I'm going to sound like a callous bastard, but for those who can't get past that point, frell 'em. Let 'em read Brooks or Edding (I would say Anthony, but he's a pretty overt perv).

(and just 'cause I'm feeling a little peevish, the question is "moot," not "mute." forgive, me; the abuse of this particular word is one of my grammar nazi pet peeves.)

Usage Note: The adjective moot is originally a legal term going back to the mid-16th century. It derives from the noun moot, in its sense of a hypothetical case argued as an exercise by law students. Consequently, a moot question is one that is arguable or open to debate. But in the mid-19th century people also began to look at the hypothetical side of moot as its essential meaning, and they started to use the word to mean “of no significance or relevance.” Thus, a moot point, however debatable, is one that has no practical value.

Caer Sylvanus, i tip my hat to you! Thank you for correcting my linguistic error. Please - and i mean this with total sincerity - please keep reminding me that if i want to be a pretentious bastard, i better do it right!

As to your BRAVE arguement - i completely agree. To quote myself (yes, its true ; my arrogance knows no bounds ) :
"i'd never read a fantasy novel prepared to tackle such an issue in such a gut-wrenchingly painful way. I may not like it, but that scene is part of what makes the Chronicles great."

By 'Martin' do you mean George R.R.? Melenkurian Abatha, i love that bloke! I know this is off topic, but have you read 'Tuf Voyaging'?

Caer Sylvanus wrote:
"And I'm going to sound like a callous bastard, but for those who can't get past that point, frell 'em. Let 'em read Brooks or Edding (I would say Anthony, but he's a pretty overt perv)."
A touch! A veritable sting!

You're a good guy (person), Earthfriend, and I didn't think you sounded pretentious (and if anybody can recognize pretentiousness, it's the master of it, namely me ). Thanks for taking the post in stride. I wasn't trying to be argumentative of your points, but more like heated irritation at the subject. Blah.

I've read the Game of Thrones books, but can't say I've heard of "Tuf Voyaging" (I'm assuming it's by Martin?). The lady to talk to about Martin is Duchess of Malfi. We have some threads about him in the general fantasy section, or you can check out the links and go to master Danlo's Neverness site (Ahira's Hangar... great site that I'm currently unable to visit) where there's a whole section dedicated to him.

Hi all,

I'm relatively new here, I've posted once or twice.

I believe I see several of the arguments for forgiving TC are everything he has gone through, being responsible for the land and all. If I'm not misinterpretting, None of that had happened yet, so it's irrelevant.

Forgiveness, yes, it is up to the characters directly affected to forgive him, our forgiveness doesn't count for much.

I do have to say though, that believing it's a dream, just doesn't justify it for me. I've never dreamed about raping someone, and if I did, I would certainly do everything I had control over in the dream state to stop/prevent it. I would be horrified by the dream, and certainly couldn't enjoy the act enough to perform it. At 16, I'm not so much worried about it being the rape of a child, it's just as hienous to rape an adult woman. Although her being a pure and innocent virginal 16 yr old, maybe ratchets up the hienousness a bit.

I was actually one of those who bailed after I started reading the rape scene. Than I thought about how great the rest of the writing was, and I pushed forward. Then I bailed again, believing I was done with it, and went back a third time, when I was able to finish the scene finally. I wish there had been another way to bring about the consequences that occured from that one event, but I definitely understand the need for it, and don't believe it could be changed in anyway. I had the same problem with The Gap Series. But I do admit, the Gap and TC Series are some of my most favorite books, despite the difficulty of those few pages. I have read through the series of 6 TC books twice now since I first inherited them 8 years ago.

Cheers Forestal!

Now i can go and indulge my love of Martin as well! Then Zelazny, then Shirley - oh, don't forget Tolkien, Gibson, and Sterling - then...
Hmm. You know, i think i'm going to have to invest in a catheter and a drip.

In many ways this one scene is the one thing that sets the chronicles apart from most other contemporary fantasy. Even now, 26 years after, the rape is still a point of controversy and a point which sets these books apart from all other fantasy. It is true that there is a lot of stuff going on in other books, but few of the protagonists in those books have been put through the wringer as thoroughly as TC was in just the first few chapters of LFB.

I remember being particularly shocked when I first read that part of LFB. I actually glanced at some pages later on to see if Lena reappeared, when she didn't I was expecting to have real difficulty seeing Covenant sa any kind of decent human being. I thought this would make reading the rest of the books very difficult, but I'm very glad I pressed on. I found TC's attitude throughout the first chronicles very frustrating, but that and character passages like the rape are what sets Covenant apart from the square jawed all-american heroes who appear in so many other novels, within Fantasy and without.

It is so very important that the reader attempt to understand the mindset of leprosy throughout the book. The fact Covenent is not perfect, is so hard to like at times, makes him so real to us. I still struggle today to evaluate and judge the act. It is the beginning of MANY judgements of good and evil, right and wrong, hope and despair, the reader is faced with. I do love these books!

*bump for z*