The Vow's flaw

[Fist and Faith]

*waves to Durris*

[Durris]

The Vow was about purity. What Covenant learned in the Second Chronicles is that purity is less strong than an alloy.

What if, instead of despairing at what happened to Korik et al., Bannor and brethren could have found a way to anneal it into their concept of themselves? A Vow made of integration rather than exclusion would have been stronger than ever...

Oh if only!

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, purity. Bannor even called it that: pure service against Corruption. Like the samurai who served perfectly, slicing his stomach open without question - without needing to know the reason, or even caring if there was a reason - if his master said to do it.

And that's all well and good. But the samurai strived for the attainable. The Bloodguard didn't, yet their nature and Vow forced them to keep trying for millennia. Poor guys.

[[Syl]]

The Samurai also allowed for the possiblity of failure: when performing seppuku, a samurai would have a second standing by to chop off his head in case he failed.

[Fist and Faith]

I thought the second was there to put him out of his misery, but only after the lethal cuts were made, which was the proof of the samurai's obedience.

[Durris]

Spoiler

Did Korik's eyes change back from fiery green to their original brown or black as he died at Bannor's hands? And was his last thought Thank you, or at least Tan-Haruchail?

I hope so, to all the gods that ever have been.

[Fist and Faith]

Durris, I like your style.

[Durris]

Why, thank you. *bows fractionally*

[Nav]

I agree. I always thought that the Lords seemed to subscribe to the Kimberley Bauer school of staying out of trouble.

[[Syl]]

I thought the second was there to put him out of his misery, but only after the lethal cuts were made, which was the proof of the samurai's obedience.

It's a long process, and the vast majority didn't get all the way through it. Left to right, up, then left to right again. The second (usually) acted on a signal from the samurai performing seppuku, the point where he just couldn't take it any further. It wouldn't do to have your honorable, respectable suicide fouled up by a bunch of blubbering, flailing around, or screaming.

[Durris]

In this connection I'm continually astounded by First Mark Tuvor's strength of will. After his bones had been burned to ash inside him, he stubbornly refused to die or lose self-awareness until he could receive from Covenant the assurance that he'd been faithful enough.

Tuvor shuddered; his eyes opened. Covenant looked away from Prothall. Tuvor's lips moved, but he made no sound.
Mhoram tried to comfort him. "Have no fear. This evil will be overcome—it is in the High Lord's hands. And your name will be remembered with honor wherever trust is valued."
But Tuvor's eyes held Covenant, and he managed to whisper one word, "True?" His whole body strained with supplication, but Covenant did not know whether he asked for a promise or a judgment.
Yet the Unbeliever answered. He could not refuse a Bloodguard, could not deny the appeal of such expensive fidelity. The word stuck in his throat, but he forced it out. "Yes."
Tuvor shuddered again, and died with a flat groan as if the chord of his Vow had snapped.

This is far from seppuku in the sense that it is neither a self-inflicted death nor does it reflect any objective dishonor (or arbitrary test of obedience) whatsoever. But somehow that hanging on to life, for minutes that must have felt longer than his whole prior 2000 years of service, isn't far from the state of a samurai who carries out the entire ritual before accepting the second's help.

Apparently the moral agony of Tuvor's uncertainty exceeded his physical agony.

I still don't understand why he chose Covenant to ask for the last affirmation. Mhoram did his best, but Tuvor's eyes were fastened on Covenant the whole time.

[Fist and Faith]

I still don't understand why he chose Covenant to ask for the last affirmation. Mhoram did his best, but Tuvor's eyes were fastened on Covenant the whole time.

Maybe he figured Mhoram would say whatever he thought would ease Tuvor's mind, whether it was entirely true or not. But since Covenant has largely been a real s.o.b. ("For a couple of corpses?"), maybe Tuvor figured Covenant wouldn't sugar-coat it, and he (Tuvor) would get the truth. Even if the truth wasn't good. As Brinn said, any being who cannot bear the truth is indeed unworthy.

[Durris]

So only a judge who could condemn has the power to most honorably acquit...that makes sense. The other side of that coin is that if even Covenant the Unbeliever judged him true, Tuvor had not one cubic micron of room for doubt left.

(The voice he really wanted to hear, I think, was Kevin's, saying something that might translate You were right; I was wrong. It wasn't your fault! An acknowledgment forever unavailable.)

Your suggestion that Tuvor feared Mhoram would say what he needed to hear irrespective of truth is painfully plausible. That motive moves the whole scene a bit closer to classic seppuku--gives it a morally self-injurious quality.

As a reader, I can't imagine the Lords actually (in objective truth) colluding with the Bloodguard in denial of a "failure" they all tacitly knew. (Everyone involved had health-sense at this stage and could have seen any shadings of dishonesty or ambivalence.) At the same time, that picture is entirely consonant with what we've seen of Bloodguard consciences. Doubting themselves and projecting the doubt on their whole world as a truth they fail to face.

This is a work of fiction?

[Durris]

*bump* Hi, Cail!

[Cail]

I mentioned this elsewhere tonight, but this is a more proper forum I think. Everything that follows is IMHO of course...

1. The Vow was originally corrupted when Kevin decieved the bloodguard prior to Desecration. The Bloodguard failed to protect Kevin from his despair, and ultimately his demise.

2. Bannor used not one, but two weapons in LFB; TC's ring and The Staff of Law. This could be interpreted that the Bloodguard, and more specifically Bannor, failed to protect their charges, yet relied on lore to protect them. Bannors actions would have certainly cast shadows on the Vow.

3. Korik's mission to Seareach had to primary directives-summon or succor, and protect the lives of the Lords in their care. Sitting here playing Monday morning Bloodguard, I think that once things started getting dicey in the Sarangrave, Korik should have pulled his party out and gone around. The Vow says nothing of Giants. Korik's failure was a crushing blow.

4. Bannor absolutely should not have named the power of the Seventh Ward.

5. Korik's return to Revelstone was the icing on the cake. That he not only failed his mission, failed to protect his charges, but he also was mastered by Corruption and the Stone. Now, put yourself in Bannor's shoes and imagine walking onto the field of battle to fight a kinsman that you've known for two thousand years. A kinsman who did what the Bloodguard yearned to do: take the fight to the seat of Corruption. And failed.

The flaw in the Vow was simply that the Bloodguard had no control over anyone else in the Land. Perfect service in an imperfect world nets imperfect service.

That being said, one of the toughest lines in the series is:

"We have lost the Bloodguard".

[Cail]

One other thing. It's been suggested that the Bloodguard were similar to Samurai, and in times of failure could/might commit seppuku. I really doubt that, given the adversity (and failure) they faced surrounding Korik's mission alone.

I can't see any Haruchai, especially a Bloodguard taking the easy way out.

[Fist and Faith]

Cool! OK, let's see...

1. The Vow was originally corrupted when Kevin decieved the bloodguard prior to Desecration. The Bloodguard failed to protect Kevin from his despair, and ultimately his demise.

Well, I'm not sure how much the Bloodguard should have considered themselves responsible for the Lords' despair, though the case could be made that everyone's physical well-being is intimately tied with their emotional well-being. Protect the emotional, and you protect the physical.

However, the real failure of the Bloodguard in this instance was much simpler. They swore to protect the Lords, then left them for the mountains. How the heck you gonna protect them from the mountains??? Why were they taking orders from Kevin? They didn't ask his permission, and weren't following his orders, when they took the Vow. The Vow was one of protection, not obedience.

2. Bannor used not one, but two weapons in LFB; TC's ring and The Staff of Law. This could be interpreted that the Bloodguard, and more specifically Bannor, failed to protect their charges, yet relied on lore to protect them. Bannors actions would have certainly cast shadows on the Vow.

I see this as two different issues:
1) The Haruchai mindset and ideal is to rely ONLY on yourself. Fist and Faith. Absolutely nothing else.
2) The Vow - Guard the Lords.
The mindset had nothing to do with the Vow. If they really wanted to protect, they should have used any weapon or knowledge that could help them. Bannor obviously agreed, at least partially, a couple times. If a Bloodguard's death saves his Lord, then he succeeded. If he dies bravely, painfully, and at great cost to the enemy, but his Lord also dies, he failed. Bannor decided that saving his Lord was worth breaking their F&F mindset. (And Thomin made an even more incredible decision! )

3. Korik's mission to Seareach had to primary directives-summon or succor, and protect the lives of the Lords in their care. Sitting here playing Monday morning Bloodguard, I think that once things started getting dicey in the Sarangrave, Korik should have pulled his party out and gone around. The Vow says nothing of Giants. Korik's failure was a crushing blow.

The only justification I can come up with is that Korik thought the Lords would not agree to wasting time going around. Although the Bloodguard might have chosen safeguarding the Lords at the expense of the Giants, the Lords certainly would not have.

4. Bannor absolutely should not have named the power of the Seventh Ward.

This is the point where I disagree, and the reason I started this thread. The Bloodguard had no business deciding which powers the Lords should and should not have access to. They took the Vow because of the Lords' extraordinary uses of extreme powers, then tried to prevent them from using their powers - turn them into lesser beings - just because they would then be easier to protect. The Vow should have simply been "If by life or death I can save you, I will." Heh. OK, I couldn't resist. But that's close. Maybe more specific: "If by life or death I can protect you from any form of attack, I will." The key is attack. That's all the Vow should have been about.

5. Korik's return to Revelstone was the icing on the cake. That he not only failed his mission, failed to protect his charges, but he also was mastered by Corruption and the Stone. Now, put yourself in Bannor's shoes and imagine walking onto the field of battle to fight a kinsman that you've known for two thousand years. A kinsman who did what the Bloodguard yearned to do: take the fight to the seat of Corruption. And failed.

There aren't words for the heartbreak and shame Bannor must have felt!! (And no emoticon for it either.)

The flaw in the Vow was simply that the Bloodguard had no control over anyone else in the Land. Perfect service in an imperfect world nets imperfect service.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. Service can be perfect, if it does not depend on the actions of others.

That being said, one of the toughest lines in the series is:

"We have lost the Bloodguard".

Even if we hadn't ever learned why, just knowing that they had abandoned their Vow would have meant that something quite heartwrenching had happened.


And no, either you misunderstand, or, more likely, I wasn't clear enough. I most certainly did NOT mean to suggest that any Bloodguard would commit seppuku. I was just mentioning the perfect service of the samurai, which was a much simpler vow - to do as told, no questions asked, nor explanations needed - going so far as to kill yourself if so ordered.

[Cail]

Wow...OK...
Fist wrote:

Well, I'm not sure how much the Bloodguard should have considered themselves responsible for the Lords' despair, though the case could be made that everyone's physical well-being is intimately tied with their emotional well-being. Protect the emotional, and you protect the physical.

However, the real failure of the Bloodguard in this instance was much simpler. They swore to protect the Lords, then left them for the mountains. How the heck you gonna protect them from the mountains??? Why were they taking orders from Kevin? They didn't ask his permission, and weren't following his orders, when they took the Vow. The Vow was one of protection, not obedience.

The Bloodguard weren't responsible for their despair, but your second point is excellent. I can see it now; "Hey guys, you're all doing such a great job with the no sleep and food and all, and I was thinking you could use a couple of weeks off."
It doesn't wash. Protection, not obedience is the key.

This is the point where I disagree, and the reason I started this thread. The Bloodguard had no business deciding which powers the Lords should and should not have access to. They took the Vow because of the Lords' extraordinary uses of extreme powers, then tried to prevent them from using their powers - turn them into lesser beings - just because they would then be easier to protect. The Vow should have simply been "If by life or death I can save you, I will." Heh. OK, I couldn't resist. But that's close. Maybe more specific: "If by life or death I can protect you from any form of attack, I will." The key is attack. That's all the Vow should have been about.

Bannor was put in a bad position on this one. I believe that he should have remained neutral and kept his mouth shut. Obviously he had no way of seeing into Elena's heart, so he didn't know the outcome of the Seventh Ward, but with his long experience, it could be argued that he should have known that the Lords weren't ready for that power, and that that power hadn't saved Kevin. As to the exact nature of the Vow, I don't know. The Haruchai are incredibly passionate, and it would seem that they should go to any length to keep the Lords alive. However, their credo "Fist and Faith", would seem to run contrary to the Vow. If Tuvor could have done his job better with a sword, should he have? Who knows. This is part of the enigma of the Bloodguard.

Cail wrote:
The flaw in the Vow was simply that the Bloodguard had no control over anyone else in the Land. Perfect service in an imperfect world nets imperfect service.
I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. Service can be perfect, if it does not depend on the actions of others.

I should have explained this better. The Bloodguard were as perfect in service as they could be. The random actions of fate, and of their charges, often skewed the outcome of their service. The net result of that was that the service was imperfect...the end result, not the intent.

I can't remember the exact quote, but it's something to the effect of:

"We have known despair, and it is not to our liking:.

This speaks volumes. I believe that we as readers were privy to 5500 years of the Haruchai's frustration. They blamed themselves for everything because they didn't or couldn't understand why the Bloodguard fell.

Sorry if this sounds disjointed, but I'm trying to do this at work...Keep it coming though, I'm enjoying it

[Durris]

3. Korik's mission to Seareach had two primary directives-summon or succor, and protect the lives of the Lords in their care. Sitting here playing Monday morning Bloodguard, I think that once things started getting dicey in the Sarangrave, Korik should have pulled his party out and gone around. The Vow says nothing of Giants.

The Vow doesn't, no. But the Giants the five commanders met when first arriving at Revelstone had been one of the inspirations for the Vow, one of the many things that, coming at them all at once, made them need to belong to "all this" completely and forever. To put it in Covenant's terms, the Giants were a major "seduction" of the Land where the Haruchai were concerned. (I'm not sure when the Giants acquired their gift of tongues from the Elohim, but if they already had it in Kevin's time, they would have been the only folks in Revelstone who could speak with the Haruchai directly; that would have made a difference too. And Giants were longer-lived than humans; though not as long-lived as the Bloodguard under the Vow, long enough to have nontrivial amounts of shared history with them.)

Let me tell you a little something about the Haruchai. They are a very solitary people. And there’s good reason for this. It’s not arrogance. It’s not shyness. The question is: Who do they have to relate to? A bunch of weakling Land dwellers? Not! OK, in all fairness, as humans go, the Woodhelvennin and Stonedowners from the Land’s past were great people. And some individuals, like Mhoram – and we’ve begun to learn Sunder is another - can match the Haruchai will and faith. But as a people? Not even close. Nobody is. The Haruchai are alone. Even lonely.

But it wasn’t always so. Their storytellers remind them of a glorious race. A race who, though so different in outward behavior, acted from the same extravagant emotions, and acted with honor, courage, and fealty. A race that could resist possession by Ravers with little or no effort. A race that they gave their friendship to fiercely.

This all adds up to the kind of double bind Foul delights in. The Bloodguard couldn't both "summon or succor" and keep the Vow (by its strictest interpretation). But, imho, they could not deliberately abandon the Giants to their fate, being who they were; their shared fealty with the Giants was so nearly as strong as the Vow one needs a microscope to tell the difference.

As it all shook out, they could save neither the Giants nor their Vow for all their utmost efforts to do both.

Unspeakable are the ways of Corruption.

[Fist and Faith]

The Bloodguard weren't responsible for their despair,

No. But I thought that you thought that they thought they were when you said, "The Bloodguard failed to protect Kevin from his despair." They didn't fail to protect him from his despair, because they never said they would.

As to the exact nature of the Vow, I don't know. The Haruchai are incredibly passionate, and it would seem that they should go to any length to keep the Lords alive. However, their credo "Fist and Faith", would seem to run contrary to the Vow. If Tuvor could have done his job better with a sword, should he have? Who knows. This is part of the enigma of the Bloodguard.

The way they limit themselves in this way is frustrating at times. But, ultimately (at the end of the day? ), I view such things as a package deal. In Chariots of Fire, Eric Liddell, among the greatest runners in the world, would not race in the Olympic qualifier because it was being held on Sunday. His belief is that the sabbath is God's day. Various powerful people, including the Prince of Wales, tried to convince him that this was sufficiently important to deny his beliefs. But he would not back down. (Fortunately, another solution was found.) After, two of these powerful men had this conversation:

"Thank God for Lindsey. I thought the lad had us beaten."

"He did have us beaten, Effie. And thank God he did."

"I don't quite follow you."

"Well, the 'lad,' as you call him, is a... a true man of principal, and a true athlete. His speed is a mere extension of his life, its force. We sought to sever his running from himself."

"For his country's sake, yes."

"No sake is worth that, Effie. Least of all a guilty national pride."

The Haruchai passion, honor, extravagence, and Fist and Faith mindset, all go together. Change one, and the others will likely change too. So if they used weapons, they might also be a bunch of lying s.o.b.'s. If Hesse wasn't crazy enough to be sent to an asylum, would he have been the writer he was?

I can't remember the exact quote, but it's something to the effect of:

"We have known despair, and it is not to our liking:.

An excellent moment from WGW's Those Who Part:

"Thomas Covenant, bethink you." Obliquely, Linden wondered why it was Durris who spoke and not Cail. "The Haruchai are known to you. The tale of the Bloodguard is known to you. You have witnessed that proud, deathless Vow - and you have beheld its ending. Do not believe that we forget. In all the ages of that service, it was the grief of the Bloodguard that they gave no direct battle to Corruption. And yet when the chance came to Bannor - when he stood at your side upon Landsdrop with Saltheart Foamfollower and knew your purpose - he turned aside from it. You had need of him, and he turned aside.

"We do not judge him. The Vow was broken. But I say to you that we have tasted failure, and it is not to our liking. We must restore our faith. We will not turn aside again."

This speaks volumes. I believe that we as readers were privy to 5500 years of the Haruchai's frustration. They blamed themselves for everything because they didn't or couldn't understand why the Bloodguard fell.

Yeah, it seems odd, but this moment shows that there's more individuality among the Haruchai than we might normally think. They might not judge Bannor, but they sure disagree!

Sorry if this sounds disjointed, but I'm trying to do this at work...Keep it coming though, I'm enjoying it

Sounds plenty jointed to me! And yes, these conversations are as good as it gets!!

(I'm not sure when the Giants acquired their gift of tongues from the Elohim, but if they already had it in Kevin's time, they would have been the only folks in Revelstone who could speak with the Haruchai directly

*cough*Gilden-Fire*cough*