The Matrix Reloaded

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue May 20, 2003 1:01 am

Oh, it most certainly does!!! When you see it again, remember this thread! (supressed laughter)

Post by **Infelice** » Tue May 20, 2003 1:14 am

*scratches head* Hmmmmmm....... how could I have possibly missed a reference to chocolate cake?......

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Tue May 20, 2003 1:40 am

Especially THIS chocolate cake! You're gonna smack yourself for forgetting!

Post by **Infelice** » Wed May 21, 2003 5:57 am

*SMACK* That was me smacking myself for forgetting about the chocolate cake scene.......how in the world could I have forgotten that little gem? No wonder I like chocolate cake so much

Every girl needs a piece of that cake F&F.

*stifles a girlish giggle*

Post by **Dromond** » Wed May 21, 2003 6:04 am

Hmmm...thats gotta be some chocolate cake!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed May 21, 2003 11:17 am

Indeed!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Wed May 21, 2003 10:26 pm

After 3 viewings, I'm still not clear on everything the Architect says. Possibly fascinating aspects and consequences of free will (as it pertains to the Matrix), possibly pseudo-intellectual babble. I guess I'll have to suffer through some more viewings.

The fights alone are worth it! Trinity alone is worth it! Throw in the Oracle, a few great Morpheus lines, and Smith saying "Mr. Anderson," and I'm in heaven!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 24, 2003 3:25 pm

Hey caamora, let's move this to here, since I have non-TCTC issues.

****SPOILERS ABOUND*****SPOILERS ABOUND*******SPOILERS ABOUND*****

What's the deal with the AI needing the Matrix and/or Zion to be recreated time and again? The Architect said that, thanks to the Oracle (I thought the Architect's reaction to that name was very interesting), 90-something% of people accept the Matrix if given choice. So why not just do away with the small percentage that show any sign of breaking away, or even the kind of unconscious awareness that Neo had had all his life (as we learned from the conversations between Neo and Morpheus in the first movie).

Why do they need Zion? The Architect (I thought that actor was GREAT! What a voice and manner he had for the role!) even told him to gather 17 women and 6 men to start Zion up again. (And WOW, do I like those odds!

) The AI knew that Neo was different. They were looking for him before Morpheus found him. But if there was no Zion, and therefore no Morpheus to free Neo, the AI could have killed him, and that would be the end of their problems.

Did the Architect's speech clear up my confusion, and I just didn't follow it?

And here's a couple of my favorite lines from the movie.
"Not everyone believes what you believe!"
"My beliefs do not require them to."

And when Neo tells the Architect that they (AI) need humans to survive:
"There are levels of survival that we are prepared to accept."

Post by **birdandbear** » Sat May 24, 2003 8:35 pm

Okay, I have a question...

Spoiler

At the very end of the movie, when the other ship has picked up the Stranger (one of the Smith's right?), the guy who tried to kill Neo earlier, who was the sole survivor of...here's the rub... I thought the other Captain said he was the sole survivor of the other ship that was destroyed - but my friend swears he is the only surviving Zionite! She is absoloutely convinced that Zion has already been destroyed offscreen! Did I miss something!? It seems to me that there wouldn't be much of a point to a third movie if Zion is already toast. I think she's sorely confused, but I need some reassurance. Tell me there is still a Zion!

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Sat May 24, 2003 10:17 pm

Spoiler

He could not possibly have been the sole survivor of Zion, since there were several of them right there in the room! Plus the doctor and Trinity who were with Neo's unconscious body. Every human not connected to the Matrix is a Zionite, since that's the only place non-connected humans live.

He was the sole survivor of the several ships involved in that battle. They figured the machines would try to cut various, iirc, power lines, and were at key points setting up ambushes. But this survivor gave them away, and they were all destroyed. Zion hasn't been attacked yet.

Fascinating thing about the survivor... Yeah, we saw Smith take him over while still in the Matrix. Then the phone rang, and the new Smith answered it and left the Matrix. But, of course, this Smith-possessed person went back into the human body on whichever ship he was on. So somehow, Smith figured out how to reprogram the human mind!!! Nifty trick!

Post by **Vain** » Sun May 25, 2003 10:06 am

Have seen movie. Still processing. You guys did stay on till after the credits to see snippets from Revolutions?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun May 25, 2003 7:34 pm

I'm gonna have to go and see again.

Post by **Infelice** » Sun May 25, 2003 7:37 pm

Anonymous wrote: I'm gonna have to go and see again.

*sigh*

Post by **caamora** » Sun May 25, 2003 7:38 pm

Ok - I think I'm going to have to see this movie again. I loved it!!!! Definitely a DVD buy!

F&F, you lost me! I understood that conversation to mean this:

***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***SPOILERS***

I liken it to the Sunbane. Even after Linden put the Land aright, the Banefire would still be burning.

I felt that the ARchitect was saying pretty much the same thing to Neo. That the Matrix was so strong that it could not be destroyed - hence the line that there were levels of survival that they were willing to accept. He said that there had been other humans, like Neo, who were special and could control the Matrix to a certain extent but they had all failed - AND I got the impression that the Architect was saying that Neo would also, most probably, fail too.( I think you might be right on that point though that they had been looking for Neo before Morpheus was.) Anyway, I don't remember the ARchitect saying that they needed Zion. If they needed it, why try continuously to find and destroy it? I see what you are asking! I have to see the movie again and listen more carefully to this part.

Then again, think on this. The Architect is a computer program. All programs will answer questions that are asked of them - if the proper code or key (the old Asian man) is imputed. And, after all, Neo was originally a computer hacker. Rather than seeing Neo sitting in front of a computer screen, we see him talking face to face with a man that represents a computer program. It seemed to me that the Architect was awfully forthcoming with information. More so than necessary to give an enemy who could destroy him (Neo). Neo imputs the knowledge he needs to survive. The computer (ARchitect) tells him - he gives him the history between men and machines and then tells him of the choices he has to make - Trinity or Zion. If Zion, then Trinity will die. If Trinity, Zion will fall. If Zion falls, then Neo needs to get 12 women and 7 men together and rebuild Zion.

My fav character is Agent Smith. He is now a virus, correct?

I do not remember the chocolate cake! Will someone please tell me? I did have to use the lady's room during the movie. I may have missed that part

!

B&B, I also got the impression that Zion was destroyed and the one Agent Smith in disguise guy was the only survivor.

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Mon May 26, 2003 3:01 am

Vain,
Yeah, the person I went with the second time I saw it knew about the preview. I didn't think it was too exciting, but the important part is that I guess it means it's filmed, as has been rumored all along.

Infelice,
LOL

caamora,
I couldn't possibly guarantee much about the Architect's speech. I recommend we all see it a few more times, and see if we can figure it out.

-I can't tell if the Architect is telling Neo to do certain things, or saying he knows that's what Neo will do.
-I can't figure out why the AI want the Matrix to cycle the way he says it has done 5 times already, instead of being happy with the fact that more than 90% of humans accept the Matrix - and kill those that don't.

My favorite character might turn out to be Seraph, the Oracle's bodyguard. He held his own against Neo, which not even dozens of Smiths could do! Any single Smith was nothing to Neo. And the Merovingian's folks were better, but, since they all died, clearly not up to the task. But Seraph wasn't in any danger of losing when he called it off. I can't come up with a satisfactory theory for him yet.

Post by **Infelice** » Mon May 26, 2003 3:23 am

I have this theory that maybe this version of Neo really is The One... it has something to do whith what the architect said about Neo's relationship with Trinity and the fact that he was a little different to his predecessors..... Also when he zapped those machines close to the end there, he even said himself that "something's different...I can feel them". The oracle said that he had the sight.. something about seeing without time or something???

Anyway its just a theory and I'm definitely gonna have to check it out again since there were flipping previews that I missed...
Lucky I've got free movie tickets

Post by **Fist and Faith** » Mon May 26, 2003 4:02 am

Yeah, I assume that the third movie will end the Matrix permanently. The Architect seemed impressed that Neo figured out, "You haven't answered my question" sooner than the others had. The One of all Ones!

Post by **Brinn** » Mon May 26, 2003 4:57 pm

Transcript of the conversation between Neo and the Architect:

Spoiler

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many questions, and although the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, and some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you, inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*
(I think that the monitors are showing Neo's possible answers. Because the Architect does not know Neo's response he is running through all Neo's possible responses. Also, the camera zooms in on Neo's current response, showing the choice made.)

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too. This is bull****."*

Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! **** you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless, sublime. A triumph equaled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program, while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated, its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - Bull****.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "Bull****!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to return to the source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which you will be required to select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash killing everyone connected to the matrix, which coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is whether or not you are ready to accept the responsibility for the death of every human being in this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is holding, and images of people from all over the matrix appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation that was meant to create a profound attachment to the rest of your species, facilitating the function of the one. While the others experienced this in a very general way, your experience is far more specific. Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neos dream appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning, and end. There are two doors. The door to your right leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the problem is choice. But we already know what you're going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet again.

The Architect - We won't.

OK Here's my take on the Architect scene:

The Architect is the father and designer of the matrix. His creation (the matrix) was initially flawed and "whole crops of humans were lost" because he did not have the ability to comprehend the importance of free-will for the human mind to survive. The mother of the matrix (who is it? We don't know yet. It's not the Oracle.) was a machine or program created to investigate the aspects of the human psyche and who determined that choice or free will was essential for the survival of the human mind.

From what I gather the Architect is telling Neo that he is a systemic anomoly that results from the inclusion of free-will in the matrix system. An anomoly that cannot be eliminated but can be harnessed and directed for the benefit of the machines. Once the One has reached the architect it alerts the system that a reboot is necessary as dissatisfaction has reached a critical point ("Revolutions", the title of the last movie is not only indicative of rebellion but can also be seen as the return to the starting point in a repeating cycle.). The five previous "Ones" have chosen the right door and elected to restart the cycle of the destruction and rebuilding of Zion. Neo chooses the left door (and the destruction of the Matrix and all humanity) because his logical functions (which would lead him to save the human species) have been overwhelmed by his love for Trinity. In effect he has chosen the path of extinction.

BTW Zion is not destroyed yet. The fleet of hovercrafts engaged the machines which are digging toward Zion outside of the city proper. The counterattack, which was based upon the ability of the ships to each generate a machine disabling electromagnetic pulse, failed because Bane/Smith sabotaged the attack by prematurely triggering an EMP and disabling all of the hovercrafts. The counterattack has failed but Zion is still alive.

This still leaves many questions unanswered.

1. How does Neo stop the Sentinels in the real world at the end of the movie? Is the "real world" a second layer of the matrix designed to catch those minds that reject the primary matrix?

2. How has Smith entered the real world and possessed Bane? after all, he is a program.

3. Are some members of the council (who appear to be the only people of age in Zion) the original 23 that were chosen by the prior "One" to rebuild Zion?

4. Is the Oracle assisting the machines by directing Neo to the Architect all along thus fulfilling the One's mission as the system reset trigger?

P.S. Caamora, The chocolate cake scene took place in the Merovingian's restaurant. He talks about how choice is an illusion and that all our choices are based upon cause and effect...Stimulus and response. To illustrate his point he has an attractive female patron served a dish of chocolate cake that he has "programmed" to cause her to orgasm. She begins to experience the precursors of orgasm (flush, elevated pulse, etc...) and excuses herself to go to the bathroom The Merovingian excuses himself and follows her to the bathroom to reap the benefits...stimulus and response.

Of course this is all speculation on my part...We won't really know until this November! :roll[/spoiler]

Post by **The Leper Fairy** » Mon May 26, 2003 6:05 pm

Ok, I know it's really crude and I don't agree with this guy on almost anything on his site... but regardless, he's hilarious.

maddox.xmission.com/matrix2.html

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Mon May 26, 2003 7:27 pm

Does he say 'Mr. Anderson'?? Does he?!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

The Matrix Reloaded