Kevin's Watch

I don't know if I'm jealous that the other dissections are getting more attention than this one or that this chapter simply speaks for itself. I want to reread and come at it from another angle. I'll have to wait a few weeks though as next weekend is Fantasy Football draft and the 18th is when I report on SRD's latest reading from Fatal Revenant!!!

Don't sweat it, Danlo. There is a steady drop-off of both posts and views for these threads that follows the chapters in a linear fashion--except for the anomaly of chapter 4 (which is understandable, being a mini-climax). I think this will continue until only the really serious dissectors are left.

Believe me I know how these dissections go. This chapter is pretty cut and dried. Linden's done all her talking and now worries take over. We meet Jeremiah his mindblowing constructs and Sandy, simple enough-heavy duty ending. I think there's two other angles to approach this with the trouble is that Roger and Joan are pretty much covered in the surrounding chapters. (Even Roman and Lytton)

I think it's August and people are out surfing.

he began to disassemble Mount Thunder, arranging the Legos in compact rows in their carton as he removed them. Could this mean he is going to play a part in the dissolution of the land? Will he become a world builder? Has he been taken over by the beggar?

This struck me as I have always felt that in the 1st Chron the Land reflected TC and his leprosy and in the 2nd it reflected Linden's bloodlust. Perhaps in these last books the land will reflect Jeremiah's peculiar affliction and his special skill needed to save the Land will be his ability to construct (and deconstruct) with intricate detail.

Just a newbie posting his own random thoughts

This struck me as I have always felt that in the 1st Chron the Land reflected TC and his leprosy and in the 2nd it reflected Linden's bloodlust. Perhaps in these last books the land will reflect Jeremiah's peculiar affliction and his special skill needed to save the Land will be his ability to construct (and deconstruct) with intricate detail.

Welcome! You're probably correct (although I'm sure you mean Joan's bloodlust, not Linden's.)

Right Joan was, literally, after TC's blood. A better word for Linden might be guilt-the bizzare "You never loved me anyway..." quilt from her suicidal dad. And from smothering her mother who had a very pitiful outlook on life. But you do bring up an interesting "parallel" that stuck me while reading about Ms. Jonas (and even Joan to some degree) about running to fundamental (or at least very black and white) aspects of religious "salvation" for help when the world appears to be falling apart-as did Linden's mother as well.

As did Thomas Covenant at one point.. he stumbled into a tent revival looking for help.

I'll except "guilt" as an alternative to "bloodlust" here.

The religious thing I guess I always kinda felt in the back of my mind, but for some reason I tend not to think to deeply about the straight up religion references. Something I need to work on :}

The other thing I kept thinking through these early chapters is the futileness of Lindens actions. Did she learn nothing from TC--"it boots nothing to avoid his snares". That fits in nicely with the earlier posts about Linden continuely making mistakes.

That is one thing that is so very different between Linden and TC. Linden seems more predicable. So perhaps in that respect it is easier to get her to follow the path laid out for her by the despiser.

TC on the other hand.. He must have been so frustrating to Foul. You could never tell what he would do next. One minute he might defend himself and his party and the next he would say "ive had enough killing' and turn his back on the whole land and rationalize it by saying that he didnt believe in the land anyway. Take his trip to Revelstone in the second chronicles.... he goes all the way there.... finds out just how bad they were, that a raver was controlling the clave and then leaves the banefire intact. Who could have predicted that? But he was also more of a thinker than Linden.. as if he understood despite better. How many times did he tell others and himself.. Thats just what Foul wants you to do..and then did something totally different.

Spoiler

Which reminds me of TC telling Linden 'Do something he doesnt expect"

CorruptionWearsManyFaces wrote:The other thing I kept thinking through these early chapters is the futileness of Lindens actions. Did she learn nothing from TC--"it boots nothing to avoid his snares". That fits in nicely with the earlier posts about Linden continuely making mistakes.

When I apply the same data I get a different answer: People criticize Linden for going after Jeremiah, but if she is not to avoid Foul's snares, that's exactly what she should be doing. So I guess I am asking, what snares do you think Linden is avoiding, and why is that futile, or a mistake?

She knows that Foul is up to something, she can feel it in Roger. But, she has no idea what. She starts "gathering defenses" not remembering the lessons of embracing the the snare rather then trying to avoid it.

In these stories it has always proved futile to avoid the traps--hence the "it boots nothing to avoid his snares" theme. This to me seems to be a mistake is it is wasted effort. Not sure if that makes sense or not.

T

On the issue of Linden’s post-Land life “sufficing” (see chapters 1-2 dissection):

On page 38, SRD wrote: The ruin of Jeremiah’s hand was in some sense her fault … And Thomas Covenant himself had died for the same reason: because she had failed to intervene. When she had seen what was happening, she had been appalled by horror, stunned motionless. In dread she had simply watched while Covenant had smiled for Joan …

Now she knew that that night’s evil could have been prevented. … If she had acted sooner, that whole night’s carnage might have been averted. Even the Land might have been spared—

On page 41, SRD wrote: Thus [Dr. Berenford] had spared her any accusation that she had played some role in Covenant’s death. Legally, of course, she had not. Morally, she knew better.

This is a woman who blames herself for TC’s death, for Jeremiah’s maiming and “dissociative disorder,” and for her inability to help Joan’s escape her madness. Linden is carrying around a massive amount of guilt. Everything she is doing with her life right now is to make restitution for that guilt--and yet she's failing in every sense (see my chapter 2 dissection notes).

On page 41, SRD wrote: Through stubbornness as much as by skill, she had found a way to save half of [Jeremiah’s] flame-savaged hands as they could … To that extent, at least, she could forgive herself for what had happened to him.

So the implication here is that to some extent, she hasn’t forgiven herself. She did what she could to make amends, but it wasn’t enough. Clearly:

On pages 41-42, SRD wrote: At the time, she had given no thought to other forms of restitution. … Nearly two years passed before she recognized the residual ache in her heart for what it was: not grief over Covenant’s death, although that pang never lost its poignancy, but rather a hollow place left by the Land. … Her work with her patients suited her abilites; but it did not satisfy the woman who had sojourned with Giants, contended with Ravers, and opposed the Sunbane at Thomas Covenant’s side.

She wanted to heal as well some of the harm which Lord Foul had done in her present world. And she needed someone to love.

To fill the hollow place in her heart, she needs to heal; but she can't. She also needs someone to love; but her love is lost on Jeremiah (see below).

And this is exactly where SRD chooses to repeat Pitchwife’s song (second reference), linking it to the first instance in chapter 1, which came right after: “…where she did the work with which she attempted to fill Covenant’s place in her heart. His place—and the Land’s.” So I don’t exactly believe SRD on page 42 where she says the residual ache isn’t grief over Covenant’s death. The first time SRD quotes this song, he links it directly to both TC and the Land.

After repeating Pitchwife’s song, SRD writes:

On page 42, SRD wrote: She could not allow the hollow place within her to remain unfilled.”

He’s talking here of her past, before she adopted Jeremiah. Adopting him was another attempt to fill that hole (the first one was “healing” his hand). But clearly, adopting Jeremiah didn’t work. It didn’t fill the hole—otherwise, she wouldn’t still be trying to fill it in the present (as is stated on page 6). And obviously, she failed with Jeremiah, failed to bring him out of himself. Jeremiah has the potential to fill that hole, but he hasn’t done it yet.

On page 42, SRD wrote: When at last she tracked him down and arranged to meet him, she recognized immediately the missing piece of her heart, the part which might make her whole.

So only making him whole could fill her hole.

On page 42 SRD wrote: The closure of Jeremiah’s mind rebuffed any penetration. He was lost, and her love could not find him.

What good is loving someone if your love can’t find them? She hasn’t filled the hole … she only has hope of it being filled. She’s clinging to a future hope, not a present love.

On page 43, SRD wrote: With every construct, he built hope for the future. A child who could play might someday be set free. … he might at last devise a door to his prison and step out into her arms.

She would not, she swore to herself now, would not sacrifice that hope, or him, for any purpose.

She’s a woman bereft of past and future love, loving people who can’t love her back. This is not sufficient, imo.

On the issue of Linden “pining” (see chapter 2 discussion):

On page 38, SRD wrote: Trapped by indecision, she found herself sitting on her bed with her hands over her face and Thomas Covenant’s name on her lips …

Sounds like pining to me.

DrPaul had an interesting observation in the AATE forum (don't worry, no spoilers):

DrPaul wrote: ... and has previously completed, in his bedroom, a very elaborate structure culminating in an arch made from model racing car tracks and other bits from model car kits.

Nice catch! The text on page 45 states:

Now towers festooned with curlicues of track reached up on either side of his bedroom door to meet in an arch at the height of the lintel. Raceways in airy spans linked those structures to the ones which he had already finished. Yet the design would have been useless to its cars. The track through all of its loops and turns and dives formed an elaborate Mobius strip, reversing itself as it traveled so that in time a finger drawn along its route would touch every inch of its surface on both sides.

She had never asked him to take it down. Surely it was special to him? Why else had he only worked on it late at night, when he was alone? In some sense, it was more uniquely his than anything else he had built.

This is absolutely significant, especially how it is treated in the next chapter or two. Given that we know from previous work how important the Arch of Time is to this work, and the fact that Jeremiah constructed two other Land features in the living room, is it possible that this is supposed to be a symbol of the Arch? Is the Mobius strip SRD's model or symbol for how the Arch of Time contains all moments in a continuous looping whole? Can we infer anything about the end of this story from the fact that he thinks of time (in the Land) in this way? What is the significance that it reverses itself as it travels? Let the speculation begin!

SRD also goes out of his way to point out--3 times--that Jeremiah has no interest in the cars. This is significant, too, given that

Spoiler

he finally becomes intensely interested in one car, so much that he actually takes one with him to the Land.

Zarathustra wrote:DrPaul had an interesting observation in the AATE forum (don't worry, no spoilers):

DrPaul wrote: ... and has previously completed, in his bedroom, a very elaborate structure culminating in an arch made from model racing car tracks and other bits from model car kits.

Nice catch! The text on page 45 states:

Now towers festooned with curlicues of track reached up on either side of his bedroom door to meet in an arch at the height of the lintel. Raceways in airy spans linked those structures to the ones which he had already finished. Yet the design would have been useless to its cars. The track through all of its loops and turns and dives formed an elaborate Mobius strip, reversing itself as it traveled so that in time a finger drawn along its route would touch every inch of its surface on both sides.

She had never asked him to take it down. Surely it was special to him? Why else had he only worked on it late at night, when he was alone? In some sense, it was more uniquely his than anything else he had built.

This is absolutely significant, especially how it is treated in the next chapter or two. Given that we know from previous work how important the Arch of Time is to this work, and the fact that Jeremiah constructed two other Land features in the living room, is it possible that this is supposed to be a symbol of the Arch? Is the Mobius strip SRD's model or symbol for how the Arch of Time contains all moments in a continuous looping whole? Can we infer anything about the end of this story from the fact that he thinks of time (in the Land) in this way? What is the significance that it reverses itself as it travels? Let the speculation begin!

SRD also goes out of his way to point out--3 times--that Jeremiah has no interest in the cars. This is significant, too, given that

Spoiler

he finally becomes intensely interested in one car, so much that he actually takes one with him to the Land.

Oh, yes, I think it is related to the AoT, and that the Mobius-like nature points at things...but what?
A couple are fairly obvious: The world was always going to end, it's a closed structure, and all closed structures reverse back on themselves...especially from the inside. Also a pretty good visual metaphor that allows "space" or "paths" for small changes in the past, but still the vulnerability of its integrity. I'm sure someone will read this and think: but coming to an end and looping around are different. I'm saying there's no essential difference between living in a line segment and living in a circle if you can't change the circle without breaking it...no meaningful difference "history" happening once, and happening exactly the same way infinite times.
A bounded but infinite shape [an endless tube, for example] is a completely different kind of story.
The closed nature also implies a "space" for a new "place" to be made.
None of that's really new or revelatory...though such a tube-shape might make an excellent cage for someone like LF [as long as you didn't put any mortal good guys trapped in there with him].
All that to get too: I speculate that the End [a real end, with the structure destroyed], although partly tragic, approaches with the complete approval of the Creator, with him hoping TC, Linden, Jeremiah freely make the right choices...it's risky, but the other option is continuous doom and gloom.
Heh...I also have a completely contradictory theory that I won't babble about right now, that Jeremiah's structure isn't the innate shape of the Arch and universe, but what he, as an outsider with his talent can make it do.

On the spoilered part:

Spoiler

I think the car is Jeremiah's resistance to LF/Croyel/manipulation, his attempting to hold on to what he can of the little grounding/connection he has to himself and others...he grabbed what he could when being taken [literally, at the point where Roger comes for him] That's likely fairly obvious, but in addition it might stand for the fact that, with all the options available with his talent/structures, he's chosen his "vehicle"...how to get where he's going. Or maybe just that he can act and choose.

I've been thinking about the title of this chapter, "In spite of her." I think it has to apply to Linden, because the only other woman in this chapter is Sandy (minor character). If Joan were in this chapter, for instance, she might be another likely candidate.

Perhaps it has to do with Linden's relationship with Jeremiah. Answers.com defines this idiom as, "Not stopped by; regardless of."

Jeremiah is certainly "regardless of" Linden. He doesn't regard her. But I'm bothered by the "spite" part of this phrase, an important word in the work of Donaldson. Possibly a hint that all is not peachy with Jeremiah and his feelings toward his "mom?"


Scary Linden reference:

On page 32 wrote: If the old man appeared, she would have to choose between the Land and Jeremiah. She could not challenge Lord Foul in the Land's defense without abandoning her son; and that she would not do. No matter how many people died, or how much beauty was destroyed.

Holy crap! No matter how many people died?

Interesting that he danger is also phrased in terms of beauty being destroyed (on equal footing with people dying), given [FR spoiler]

Spoiler

Wildwood's question in FR (see my thread Wildwood's Question in the FR forum).

While beauty being destroyed has clearly been a danger in the 1st and 2nd Chronicles, I don't believe SRD ever made it this explicit. It always seemed like a symptom of the danger, not the danger itself. (The real danger being Despite, which causes a disregard or malice toward things of beauty, which are then attacked as a means to motivate white gold wielders into desecrations in order to free Foul.)

Shortly after, SRD writes:

On page 33, SRD wrote: Thomas Covenant had told her that some decisions could not serve evil, no matter how severly they appeared to harm the Land.

So it seems her decision to choose Jeremiah over the Land already has this built-in excuse. And notice the word, "appeared" (to harm the Land). Would the decision be evil if it actually *did* harm the Land? Is the apparent nature of the harm the key factor? Healing the Land from harm sure seemed important in the last 6 books! Indeed, that was Linden's entire purpose in the Land--a point SRD makes explicit in chapter 1:

On page 9, SRD wrote: ... she had somehow spent several months outside--or deep within--herself, striving to win free of her own weakness and the legacy of her parents in order to preserve the beauty of a world which had never been meant for corruption.

But Linden is already hoping (even before going to the Land) that the choices she will make there will turn out to be more like Covenant's refusal of the Land's plight for the sake of the snakebite girl ... which ultimately led to LF's defeat. With classic Donaldsonian repetition, this sentiment is echoed again before the chapter is over. This chapter is where we get her central dilemma.

I was gonna make a long post, but I'll keep it short.
I think you're hit it on the head with the "idiomatic" def., and snakebite girl parallel stuff.
On the apparent/real harm: it seems to me that the damage is one thing, but that the source of the choice that causes it is otherwise. TC's kind of choice he's talking about here doesn't harm the essence/spirit of the land [in fact springs from it].

I propose a supplementary possibility to the chapter title [for the same reason, that word "spite."] SRD is tricky, this phrase literally [instead of idiomatically] could mean "In order to spite her." So I think it means what you suggest, but also that Roger [by extension LF] is intentionally and specifically acting in ways that spite Linden. [that may all be obvious].

But I think a very important thing [especially to Linden's character, dilemma, and motivations] is at the very end:

She could not think; she was too full of rage. The old prophet had betrayed her. He had given her no warning at all.
Apparently, he no longer cared what happened to the Land

In spite of Linden's love, concern, and ability to act and make a difference, which she proved in the past, and still has, the prophet/creator has forfeited the game [hell, maybe left the building and sold the team].

Vraith, I'm sure you're right. That's a very important quote. In fact, I've just finished the Prologue, and realized something about the Mother of All Spoilers, as Donaldson has called this issue. I'll post in the Runes forum, because it transcends any single chapter dissection.

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