Humans

[Ryzel]

It is very easy to say that we have the capacity for evil in us, but like Skyweir said earlier: there are many kinds of darkness.

The fact is that there are many types of killing, many types of rape and many types of torture. Some of these are clearly recognized as evil, others are not.

Certainly I have the capacity for killing someone, I could accidentally run someone over with my car. Rape I do not know, but presumably I could be mistaken somehow with regard to consent etc.. Does this capacity make me evil? Does doing something like this make me evil?

But of all these things the most common is probably torture. (surprised?) It all depends on definition. If you define torture as strapping someone to a table and burning his skin with red hot irons then that is not quite common, but if you define torture as "inflicting hurt or harm on another person without any cause except your own entertainment or gain" then most people have engaged in it at one time or another. It is maybe a very minor thing to hurt someone with a word, but it is just a matter of scale and it can be called torture if you do not consider the scale.

[Earthfriend]

But I think Freud's drive theory (That basically the only things that drive us are sex and agression - that's what you are saying?) is a little limiting. Freud's drives are universal, but also "inherently impersonal" and incompatible with consciousness because they are primitive and indiscriminate.

Great point Phoebe! And good pick-up; i didn't even realise i was expressing freudian theory till you pointed it out, but that does seem to be what i am saying. And yeah, Freud's theory was based on a very limited sample group, and ive never really been too comfortable with the idea that sex is the root of all ills (pardon the AWFUL pun )

Im going to have to read Barash, but is he saying that we do not have an inherent pacifistic tendency because it is only in recent times, in terms of evolution, that we have needed one? At least, that's what i think he is saying in the excerpt you quoted.

If this is so, maybe the Lords and the People of the Land display an understanding for the need of such a tendency with the Oath of Peace.

[Skyweir]

Demons come in all shapes and sizes. And people vary just as greatly in their ability to control or contain them.

to accept this I would first have to accept that humans are controlled by influences external to them .. but in this case by your notion of 'demons' .. methinks this smacks of too much sci-fantasy.

I believe people who commit attrocities against others .. unless they can claim sickness as their excuse .. they have no one else to claim is responsible but themselves.

I don't see bad people as "sick".

But you do see bad people?? Which in itself alludes that there are various classes of persons .. and some of them are morally labelled as bad. But not all .. so then the rest are ...?? good??

Rather, they are simply unable to control their inner demons

. these inner demons .. just what are you claiming they may be? .. if not sociopathic or pyschological illnesses? .. are they really evil spirits that possess the bodies of all .. or just some??

Soldiers are forced to tap into theirs to do normally unspeakable things

Do military servicemen function in combat only because of their inner demons? Actually individual servicemen may be found guilty of unspeakable things .. but most do not indulge in attrocities .. By unspeakable .. I am assuming you are referring not to killing in combat but actually committing crimes .. of which they are not commanded to do.

Overall, am I capable of such unspeakable acts myself? No. I'm stronger than my demon - or at least more stubborn and determined. And now that I recognize him, it's easeir to identify his whisperings.

who's whisperings .. your personal demon who resides within you?

But I sometimes picture myself in the role of the bad personYou need to if you ever want to try to understand why they do these things. In the name of understanding, I can picture myself doing these heinous things

.

I dont need to imagine .. I have seen with my own eyes .. and I could never even entertain the idea of empathising with those who commit acts so heinous

Are we puppets to these etherial things - our actions pulled toward both, but we somehow determine which way to go? Or maybe the Creator decided to measure us based on how well we do unaided against the demons?

I think a grand plan ordained by a creator that entails such contrivance makes such a creator cruel and barbaric.

Or maybe I read too much fantasy, and can no longer separate it from the "real world".

... LOL .. maybe ..

Pheobe and Earthfriend great discussion points!! I agree that a propensity for violence is a learned response rather than an inherent response as a general rule .. but as with any rule there are always exceptions .. but exceptions are the minority not the norm.

I agree wholeheartedly with Ryzel .. his distinguishment of various crimes is relevant .. killing is different from murder .. rape from sex .. marital rape even harder to distinguish from sex .. etc etc..

If a man causes the death of another unintentionally it is not assigned the label of 'murder' .

I do not accept that humans are barbaric and cruel by nature .. some may be .. but the majority do not support this assertion

[Ageless Stranger]

there have been a lot of good points made by either side of the discussion here, but i would have to say that i believe humans are born with a tainted soul and a propensity toward sin. we are humans; we are flawed; we fall to sin(or violence, etc). what separates us from animals is our ability to choose between carnal instinct or a higher moral ideal. also, we can strive to serve something higher than ourselves(for me, Christ) and embrace the fact that we will make mistakes, but these mistakes can be forgiven. i dont mean to make this into a theological discussion, but to me, a question like that can only be answered through what the individual believes.

[Earthfriend]

...a question like that can only be answered through what the individual believes.

Exactly!

Brian - 'You're all individuals!'

Mob - 'WE'RE ALL INDIVIDUALS!!'

Lone Voice - 'Er, I'm not!'

Monty Python's, The Life Of Brian

[Skyweir]

Ageless you raised a critical point .. at the end of the day we each take our subjective positions based on personal belief and value systems.

As for me .. it does not bode well with me this notion that 'humans are inherently evil' .. or have a 'propensity to sin' ..

If we believe that we are children of a God .. then to suggest we are tainted or like manner would allude that the God who bore us is also tainted ..

I believe humankind has immense potential for good ..

I do not believe we are born in 'sin' .. just because someone made an executive decision - Eve presumably - to progress rather than remain is stasis.

Those who are responsible for crimes are in the majority which attests to there being no prevalence or propensity for ill ..

And this notion imho .. is at odds with a Creator's judgement .. which would be fatally flawed if he loaded the dice before putting them in play!

I am of the personal opinion .. that we are not loaded dice .. we have just as much propensity to do good as otherwise .. we have agency .. which by its very nature maintains that essential balance .. and brings the responsibility squarely back to where it belongs .. with us ..

if we believe we are inherently evil .. then what else can we be expected to do but evil?

nay but we have 'choice' and 'free will' that enable us to act with our own volition as autonomous individuals ..

what we do with that autonomy is far more relevant in any grand scheme of things ..

[Ageless Stranger]

Skyweir, i can definitely see your point of view, and i assume yours is based on a broader scheme than Christianity(on which i base my opinion). i feel that God gave us the choice to sin or to love him and accept his son as a savior who became our sin and wiped our slate clean because of Gods infinite love. i feel that because God gave us choice, and we are flawed, we will all err and fall to sin. i dont feel that God is imperfect in any way; i believe that He wants it to be our choice. i base my opinions on what i read in the bible, but i in no way expect other people to adhere to my own opinions...hence the main point of my post above.
as Romans 3: 23-25: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came bye Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."
i dont want to quote a ton of other verses, because i dont want to be overbearing and seem as if im trying to convert ppl, but i hope that illustrates the basis of my opinion that we are all sinful and that this is unavoidable, and that at the same time, God is perfect and unfathomable in his motives except that they are all done to His glory and out of this perfect love for us.

[Ageless Stranger]

***not that we are incapable of good..i didnt mean that...i think that humanity is certainly capable of great things and great love and compassion. we definitely have choice, and with that choice we shape the rest of the world and the future of our souls.

[Fist and Faith]

If I remember the scene from Barney Miller correctly, Longfellow said, "When the gods would destroy, they first create man."

Which leads to another of my hair-brained ideas. Maybe man was another of the banes that Foul placed on the Earth before the Creator noticed what was happening.

[Ageless Stranger]

wow, thats a good thought! i havent considered it that way before. ill have to digest that one for a while

[Earthfriend]

Which leads to another of my hair-brained ideas. Maybe man was another of the banes that Foul placed on the Earth before the Creator noticed what was happening.

Surely you are not suggesting that the Haruchai are the work of the Corrupter... What an evil, evil thought!

[Fist and Faith]

Heh I hadn't thought of it that way. I guess I'd have to say that the Haruchai are evidence that at least some of Lord Foul's Banes can change their destiny. Not the Stone, surely, but some can. Mhoram certainly did, and the entire Haruchai race did. But the humans who destroyed the One Forest, the ones who persecuted the Creator's beloved Sandgorgons (who were peacefully carving out their place in the desert, merely following their Tao, until humans showed up), and others, remain Foul's minions.


Uhhhhh, if my thought that humans are one of Foul's banes is right in the first place. It was just a passing thought, one that I'm not going to argue too strenously for. But I thought it was an interesting idea.

[Romeo]

I definately like that idea. In all the tales of the Creator, not once (that I remember) did it mention that He populated the planet with people.

"The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization." -Ralph Waldo Emerson, writer and philosopher (1803-1882)

I think it provides a great plot. In order to save the Creator's creation (and somehow her own world), Linden has to bring about the destruction of all humankind in the Land's earth. Hmmm....

[Revan]

Earthfriend wrote:
"Anybody ever read Lord of the Flies I think constructs such as 'civility' and 'humanity' are just that - constructs. Apply a little presure here, take away a supporting crutch there, and suddenly the whole thing falls apart. It's amazing just what so-called 'civilised' human biengs can do..."
That's exactly my point, that we are covered by the way we live, everything we've been taught blocks (or effectly renders it as no existant) certain parts of us, one example is instinct.

Now, when I first started this topic, what I asked differed from what I wanted to know, because I couldn't really think of a proper way to ask it. Many have spoke of inner demons, which gave me a way to put what I wanted to know. I believe you when you say you don't have it in you to murder, rape, torture. But what I wanted to know is, Do these inner demons, the deepest darkest parts of you find what Covenant had done to Lena or Angus to Morn, or just any murder or violence (this sounds bad I know, but it has to, because there's no way of putting it nicely) appealing, is part of you drawn to those things?

[Ageless Stranger]

i woudlnt say that i find these things appealing, but there are times in my life, and i venture to say most peoples' lives during which they are tempted to do things they would normally be disgusted by. during times of frustration, hurt, or anger, one might have violent thoughts of revenge or the like. ive never had any desired to rape a person, but violence is something, although i am a pacifist by nature, that i have had temptation with, and luckily overcome. good thing most people are decent enough to overcome these bad tendencies, because if not it would be a pretty scary world.

[Earthfriend]

But what I wanted to know is, Do these inner demons, the deepest darkest parts of you find what Covenant had done to Lena or Angus to Morn, or just any murder or violence (this sounds bad I know, but it has to, because there's no way of putting it nicely) appealing, is part of you drawn to those things?

Consciously, and with good faith, i would say NO! to your question, First Mark.

But then, upon reflection, most of the books i like reading seem to contain alot of violence...most of the movies i like are violent...and nearly all of the RPG's i play are violent...there's a paradox here that requires carefull contemplation, hmm.....

[Ryzel]

In a simple word: no. I do not feel any drawing towards these things. They are done by someone else (although fictional), and I feel perfectly capable of discussing them objectively.

But as Earthfriend writes, most of my entertainment seems to contain a lot of violence etc.. However I find that all the entertainment must have some purpose. The aesthetic of violence has its appeal, but the meaningless violence does not have any appeal to me. Things done by other people for reasons I do not understand has no appeal to me. I like seeing movies with fighting because either the story makes sense and the fighting makes sense, but if I cannot make sense of it I do not really enjoy it.

[Fist and Faith]

Why is A Clockwork Orange so popular for so many age groups? I'm not sure how to explain it. A part of me finds such people fascinating. Maybe because they are entirely free. Maybe because they have a powerful quality that I lack - the willingness to do whatever is necessary to win.

But I do not have their violence or brutality in me.

[Skyweir]

First I just want to add something to counter a point persented as only an 'idea' .. that the humans in the earth may be one of LF's banes.

The inhabitants of the earth were not Foul's machinations .. we know clearly what his creations look like ..

The Creator claimed his creation ~ including the inhabitants to be of his own making ..

One would expect anything of the creator's make would be good, and the majority of the inhabitants are indeed filled with goodness and the potential for good. Anything that is good is able to be corrupted given the right circumstances .. as we see in the 2nd chrons .. where Foul gains more power over the Land .. and Revelstone.

My point that we too our not banes .. or evils .. or inherently criminals ..

I dont want to talk about sin .. because there are all grades of sin .. being disrespectful to your parents is considered a sin .. maybe even disagreeing with them?? who knows .. sin is a far broader and more subjective standard ..

The question began with humanity's prevalence to inhumanity .. and crimes like murder .. rape .. and torture .. recognised crimes or offences against humanity ..

If god is good then the work of his hands are also good .. er go humanity is good .. comes into this existence pure ..

If god is flawed .. then his work must also be flawed .. er go we are flawed ..

I personally see the Creator as good .. but also maybe being fallible .. and in some ways maybe also impotent as the Creator in TCTC

.. they ~ 'Creators' are beings of great power but are restrained by lore/law from being present or from even constant intervention .. because if intervention were possible .. then .. there would be no agency .. we would not be autonomous agents of our own resolve.

[Earthfriend]

Nice , Skyweir!

I wrote a story once about 'God', where he was the dunce of Divinity School in year 12. All the other school kids (Buddha, Krishna, Danu, etc.) could get thier 'science project'- Earth - to stabilise, but God's world kept on getting hit by giant asteroids, or the inhabitants kept blowing themselves up! He just couldn't get it to work!

That's how i like to think about God - just a bloke who gave it a red-hot go, but fell just a teeny bit short of the mark!