"Nonsense" about Christianity

Post by **Auleliel** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:13 pm

Excellent post, Cail. That is the most succint explanation for Catholic beliefs that I have seen in a long time.

Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:32 pm

Cail wrote: The thing that I (now) find ironic about many of the fundamentalist churches is that they stress the importance of being "born again" in Christ, but they rely almost solely on the Old Testament, which is utterly devoid of His teachings.

I wouldn't go that far. I think "they" (depending on the church) rely heavily on the Bible as a whole, taking bits and pieces here and there to support their particular brand of Christianity. For example, a church where they don't believe in doctors is going to rely on certain passages from the OT to support this. The only faith that relies almost solely on the OT (along with other non-NT texts) would be Jewish.

Post by **Vraith** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:01 pm

Cail wrote:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and earth, and of all things seen and unseen."

One God, period. One God who (being God) can manifest himself in many ways to many people. The God who made Heaven and earth has revealed himself to me as the God of the Catholic Church. To someone else, he's the Presbyterian God, to another he's Allah, and so on. No mortal can claim the knowledge of God, so who the Hell are we to say which faith is the "only" one and the rest are wrong?

One God, different ways of getting to Him.

Point is that anyone can achieve salvation. There is no single path.

This is nice: well said, on topic, the best face of religion. Maybe you should be a theologian...many problems would be solved (or at least solvable) if you could get enough people to live this way. People have tried before, but with limited success.
Is it sufficient (in God's and/or human's eyes) that only some see/live this way?
And is it sufficient for my salvation that I try to live a "good" life, yet don't believe in God, or Christ as more than a man? I've been told (often) the answer is no, but if you're correct it may be yes. Despite the hard line usually drawn between believing in being good and believing in God, it would simply be my path.

Post by **Cail** » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:07 pm

Again, I'm only talking about my experience. The Baptist church I belonged to had us passing out Chick tracts door-to-door. The basis for the vast majority of their beliefs was the OT, specifically Leviticus, and the Book of Revelation.

Even though I did everything I was told to do by the church, the Sunday school teacher, and the boy's brigade (CSB) leader, I was damned because my baptism wasn't an immersion baptism. My mother (who was damned because she wouldn't attend church with me) was an agent of Satan because she wouldn't allow me to be rebaptized.

Other Baptist churches may be different.

One other thing too that I wanted to mention.

If God really had wanted to show off, Christ could have come down on a golden chariot with a fanfare of angels and said something to the effect of, "You all are forgiven! Do what I say and all of you will be saved!" It would have made for a much shorter Bible, and people would have been suitably impressed that yeah, that dude was really the Son of God.

But He didn't. He sent His son down as man. As one of us. He lived a simple life, and ministered to the poor and the sick. He didn't ask for power or money. The old texts called for a blood sacrifice, and that's what He gave. That's a whole lot more impressive to me than the flaming Heavenly chariot.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Let me just say this. This is what I believe. Y'all can believe whatever you want to believe. I don't think any less of you for your beliefs, and I'd appreciate it if you'd extend me the same courtesy. At the end of the day, it really doesn't matter who believes in what, and your beliefs don't injure me, as my beliefs don't injure you.

And remember this too, Christians like me get way madder than you atheists and agnostics when we see a group of people claiming to be from a church, holding signs up that say, "God hates fags".

Edit- Vraith, I don't know. I do know that I have no fear of meeting my maker with my beliefs. I think that the whole point of the Bible was to help us learn a better way through life. I think if you're doing those things, you don't really have anything to worry about.

Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:19 am

Cail wrote:Again, I'm only talking about my experience. The Baptist church I belonged to had us passing out Chick tracts door-to-door. The basis for the vast majority of their beliefs was the OT, specifically Leviticus, and the Book of Revelation.

In other words, the basis of their door-to-door tract campaign was to promote strict rigidity to religious rules and end-of-days eschatology. However, the wiki article on "Chick tracts" says nothing about Leviticus.

The basis of any Protestant church's doctrine, whether it appears in tract form or not, must be salvation through Jesus, and if fundamentalist, this doctrine consists of many other elements:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity

the inerrancy of the Bible, Sola Scriptura, the virgin birth of Christ, the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, and the imminent personal return of Jesus Christ.

Post by **Cail** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:30 am

Well, a Wiki article certainly trumps my experience.

Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:48 am

Here is an example of a
"Chick tract" The double panel at the end appeared in every tract.

Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:50 am

Cail wrote:Well, a Wiki article certainly trumps my experience.

I'm not saying that, but here is a "Chick tract list with links to the actual tracts."

Post by **Cail** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:00 am

I'm well familiar with them, thanks. And I'm also well familiar with what I went through.

Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:12 am

Cail wrote:I'm well familiar with them, thanks. And I'm also well familiar with what I went through.

Others here, such as myself, may not be familiar with them. Searching through the actual tracts I found two Leviticus references, one in an anti-homosexuality tract (obvious), and in another, an off-handed reference to someone disliking pigs.

Your old Baptist church, being intensely focused on Leviticus and Revelations, would not find in Chick tracts a good way to further its views, because I find that the Biblical references in them are strewn throughout the Bible - just as I would expect from a typical Protestant publication.

Post by **Auleliel** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:49 am

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Cail wrote:I'm well familiar with them, thanks. And I'm also well familiar with what I went through.
Others here, such as myself, may not be familiar with them.

Like me. Thanks for the links.

Post by **Cail** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:35 am

And it's time for me to leave the Close again.....

Post by **aliantha** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:00 pm

Don't go, Cail. I was enjoying your posts.

I'd never seen a Chick tract before, either. Wow. And here all this time I thought Catholics *were* Christians....

Post by **Auleliel** » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:11 pm

What Ali said.
Cail, I generally find your posts to be intelligent and informative. Don't deprive us of your presence unnecessarily.

Post by **Cybrweez** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:23 am

Cail, can I ask you the same question I asked Furls? What about all the passages that disagree w/the idea there are many paths to salvation? Jesus said the road to heaven is narrow. What did He mean?

Post by **Cail** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:57 am

Can you be specific?

Post by **Cybrweez** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:01 pm

Well, its hard to be specific, there's a lot of passages that talk about God's judgement. What about Luke 13:23-30?

Post by **Cail** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:57 pm

John 12:32

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Seems pretty clear to me.

But more importantly, why does it need to be an exclusive club? John 3:16...

"For God so loved the world..."

So he loved us (and still does).

And we already know that the Jews, who don't even believe that Jesus was the Son of God, are going to Heaven. So clearly when Christ talks about the "narrow gate", he's speaking in rather general terms.

It's about the Message. Live by His words, that's the crucial thing.

How can you reconcile the fact that God loves everyone, and commands us to love each other as we love both Him and ourselves, and everyone not having the same shot at salvation?

Post by **Cybrweez** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:58 pm

Oh, I'm not talking about not having the same shot at salvation. In fact, I mentioned that earlier in response to iQuestor. And I too believe God loves everyone, not just those who believe in Jesus. I also think God is holy, and the Bible is clear that even just one sin, you are deserving of death. So I believe the verses you mention talk about everyone's shot at salvation. That's different than thinking everyone has salvation no matter what. I don't believe the Bible teaches that anywhere.

Maybe I misunderstood your statements?

Also, I'm not sure I agree that the Jews are going to heaven no matter what. But that's for another topic.

Post by **Cail** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:17 am

We're human. We all sin. We're born with Original Sin. But we can all be forgiven for our sin. That's pretty universal.

I didn't say that everyone has salvation no matter what. You do have to work at it. But you don't have to be Catholic, or Baptist, or Muslim.

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

"Nonsense" about Christianity