Kevin's Watch

Like most things, it means whatever you want it to mean. The only valid question in regard to its meaning is what did Joyce think it mean.

--A

I don't know it needs any meaning at all, or at least that it doesn't need to be narrowly defined. It was an edited version of his stream of consciousness writing. I think he said that he wrote it one time (or dictated it possibly because at that point his eyesight was so bad) and then reviewed and rewrote, the reviewed and rewrote one more time.

I haven't really ever looked for meaning in it - there's a lot going on, but I don't really feel the need to tie it all together neatly as I think that is an exercise in futility with that book.

But I wonder what would happen if you read it ten times in a row - or 20!

If it's meaning you want from Finnegan's Wake then try Joyce's Book of the Dark. It's a bit expensive, so get it secondhand or from the library.

Otherwise, just pick up the book, open it at random and read it out loud in an Irish (or even better a Dublin accent ):

My leaves have drifted from me. All. But one clings still. I'll bear it on me. To remind me of. Lff! So soft this morning, ours. Yes. Carry me along, taddy, like you done through the toy fair! If I seen him bearing down on me now under whitespread wings like he'd come from Arkangels...

u.

Le Pétermane wrote:But I wonder what would happen if you read it ten times in a row - or 20!

Well, it's sorta a Möbius strip...so you'd just go round and round and round.

--A

ussusimiel wrote: open it at random and read it out loud in an Irish

u.

are you volunteering to read for us, uss?

I suspect the Watch has sufficient 'Hotel California' aspects enough without adding a Finnegans Wake study group to the mix!

ussusimiel wrote:Otherwise, just pick up the book, open it at random and read it out loud in an Irish (or even better a Dublin accent ):

If I ever try that I always drift north of the border, as that's the accent I heard from my dad while growing up. I don't think it works in a Belfast accent...

michaelm wrote:If I ever try that I always drift north of the border, as that's the accent I heard from my dad while growing up. I don't think it works in a Belfast accent...

I don't want to discriminate against our Northern brethern, and I think so long as you recognise and understand the possibilities of 'soft' in the context ('soft day'), and have heard and are comfortable with 'done' and 'seen' as they are used, then accent is not an issue. Joyce (like Yeats) is intrinsically Irish and anyone from Ireland will share that experience and so get certain aspects of the work without any added explanation.

u.

ussusimiel wrote: Joyce (like Yeats) is intrinsically Irish and anyone from Ireland will share that experience and so get certain aspects of the work without any added explanation.

u.

Thats an interesting observation U. Could you briefly expand on that.

Le Pétermane wrote:

ussusimiel wrote: Joyce (like Yeats) is intrinsically Irish and anyone from Ireland will share that experience and so get certain aspects of the work without any added explanation.

u.

Thats an interesting observation U. Could you briefly expand on that.

A couple of points in there, I suppose. Both Yeats and Joyce, being the people that they were completely understood where they came from and how integral that was to their make-up (even though they both spent large amounts of time living outside the country). In this sense they wasted no energy trying to be something they weren't, or denying aspects of themselves (even if they disliked lots of stuff about Ireland).

With Joyce this means that all of his work is full of Irish-English that accurately reflects much of the way we still speak today. Joyce is also inclined to include and play on Gaelic words and as Gaelic is still compulsory in school, most Irish people will get at least some of that wordplay. There are also the placenames (which are always important in Ireland), the names of places in Dublin and around the country turn up consistently throughout Finnegan's Wake especially.

With Yeats much the same applies, he invokes placenames regularly and he also uses Celtic myths and stories that again are regularly taught as part of our schooling. It's not necessarily the understanding of these things as the immersion and the feeling of ownership of them that is a part of being Irish. I have no doubt it is the same experience for an English person reading Larkin or Betjeman.

u.

ussusimiel wrote:

Le Pétermane wrote:

ussusimiel wrote: Joyce (like Yeats) is intrinsically Irish and anyone from Ireland will share that experience and so get certain aspects of the work without any added explanation.

u.

Thats an interesting observation U. Could you briefly expand on that.

A couple of points in there, I suppose. Both Yeats and Joyce, being the people that they were completely understood where they came from and how integral that was to their make-up (even though they both spent large amounts of time living outside the country). In this sense they wasted no energy trying to be something they weren't, or denying aspects of themselves (even if they disliked lots of stuff about Ireland).

With Joyce this means that all of his work is full of Irish-English that accurately reflects much of the way we still speak today. Joyce is also inclined to include and play on Gaelic words and as Gaelic is still compulsory in school, most Irish people will get at least some of that wordplay. There are also the placenames (which are always important in Ireland), the names of places in Dublin and around the country turn up consistently throughout Finnegan's Wake especially.

With Yeats much the same applies, he invokes placenames regularly and he also uses Celtic myths and stories that again are regularly taught as part of our schooling. It's not necessarily the understanding of these things as the immersion and the feeling of ownership of them that is a part of being Irish. I have no doubt it is the same experience for an English person reading Larkin or Betjeman.

u.

That is all good and true, as far as it goes.
But there is a contrapuntal truth: those outside can see what insiders cannot.
I might even go so far as to say that a characteristic of art/aesthetics writ large is to remain meaningful across perspectives. [not quite, but similar-yet-in-conflict-with what folk seem to mean when they say it "transcends boundaries."...because I insist there is a difference between the two.]

Vraith wrote:That is all good and true, as far as it goes.
But there is a contrapuntal truth: those outside can see what insiders cannot.
I might even go so far as to say that a characteristic of art/aesthetics writ large is to remain meaningful across perspectives. [not quite, but similar-yet-in-conflict-with what folk seem to mean when they say it "transcends boundaries."...because I insist there is a difference between the two.]

You'll get no disagreement about this from me. I have no doubt that Joyce and Yeats are as accessible to anyone who isn't Irish as anyone who is. That is part of the overall point. Their work is general because of its specificity. That is not to say that the experience will be exactly the same, but the differences will be of the more superficial rather than the essential kind.

u.

ussusimiel wrote:

Vraith wrote:That is all good and true, as far as it goes.
But there is a contrapuntal truth: those outside can see what insiders cannot.
I might even go so far as to say that a characteristic of art/aesthetics writ large is to remain meaningful across perspectives. [not quite, but similar-yet-in-conflict-with what folk seem to mean when they say it "transcends boundaries."...because I insist there is a difference between the two.]

You'll get no disagreement about this from me. I have no doubt that Joyce and Yeats are as accessible to anyone who isn't Irish as anyone who is. That is part of the overall point. Their work is general because of its specificity. That is not to say that the experience will be exactly the same, but the differences will be of the more superficial rather than the essential kind.

u.

Goddammit, u. We agree to much, I'm trying to manufacture arguments here to keep stuff interesting, get with the program [to serve your particular interest: fights generate post-count...and you are all about watch post counts.
But you're correct [dammit, I agreed!].
This specific/general...and the conflict applies to all kinds of stuff peeps care about. Even/especially stuff more "serious" than Gen. Lit.

Vraith wrote:Goddammit, u. We agree to much, I'm trying to manufacture arguments here to keep stuff interesting, get with the program [to serve your particular interest: fights generate post-count...and you are all about watch post counts.
But you're correct [dammit, I agreed!].

All for the post counts, not so much the fights

On certain things we agree disconcertingly, on others concertingly disagree. Joyful disharmony

Vraith wrote:This specific/general...and the conflict applies to all kinds of stuff peeps care about. Even/especially stuff more "serious" than Gen. Lit.

No sure I fully get what you mean here. Mightn't be for this thread, sounds suspiciously 'Tankish.

u.

........and in the blue cormer we have Vraith, the Massachusetts Mangler and in the red Ussusimiel the Fiaéan Fiend, and folks, If you think you've got the stomoch for the fight Let's Get Ready To rrrrRRRRUMBLE!

ussusimiel wrote: On certain things we agree disconcertingly, on others concertingly disagree. Joyful disharmony

Vraith wrote:This specific/general...and the conflict applies to all kinds of stuff peeps care about. Even/especially stuff more "serious" than Gen. Lit.

No sure I fully get what you mean here. Mightn't be for this thread, sounds suspiciously 'Tankish.

u.

on the first:
Hee...I like that, made me chuckle.
On the second....yes, not this thread. Tank-ish and Close-ish stuff.

But, to Pepe le Peter or whatever he's calling himself these days:
I'll have to be something like the New York Nuker, or perhaps the Minnesota Mangler...
One that would apply to both places I reside would be...I don't know...the Lake Country Lambaster? [or Lunatic, or Lunkhead perhaps, depending on who you talk to].

Not to ruin things by going on topic...recently had the displeasure to read some mystery short-stories. the main man is nicknamed "the thinking machine." Awesomely terrible crap...in both the general and specific modes. Generally terrible writing and specifically some of the worst "logic" any solver has ever used. One can understand the badness whether one knows everything about mysteries or nothing at all.

Yes - Back to business, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man must be one of the most tedious affairs I have attempted to read - but I was 12 at the time so it might not count.

Le Pétermane wrote:Yes - Back to business, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man must be one of the most tedious affairs I have attempted to read - but I was 12 at the time so it might not count.

It's actually on my reading queue.

The thing with Joyce and the truly literary writers (not the fake ones that write crap like Life of Pi) is that form is every bit as important, if not more so, as plot. As a result, if you read to be entertained and your idea of entertainment is a "good story" (understood as being "good plot") then you are going to have trouble with the greats. But if you can get beyond the desire for a "good story", the great writers do truly bring the best experiences you can have.

And on topic, Life of Pi was pure, idiotic dribble. It seems I am usually pretty good at finding stuff I like to read, but when I decide to check what others like or do something like a book club, it's garbage! All garbage!

Haha, I thought it sucked too.

--A