Kevin's Watch

Prebe wrote:

Rus wrote:As long as one treats faith as something that is merely blind, then that treatment will almost certainly be hostile.

Well, call me hostile then.

Call me hostile, too.

Hi, Hostile. Hi, Hostile Too.

boy! you guys sure can natter on sometimes!!!

I only had time to address one point before I went to work this morning. The most important part - the part about you telling me, over and over, for weeks - that you know my worldview better than I do, had priority. But there are other things that should be addressed.

rusmeister wrote:

Fist and Faith wrote:

rusmeister wrote:Of course, if you want to know about a belief, your best source is educated people who hold that belief.

Very interesting word! "Educated." That's a loophole you can fly a 747 through. If anyone in the world disagrees with the Church's dogma then they are obviously not sufficiently educated. If education does not lead to one holding the Church's position, then the education is insufficient or inaccurate.

The purpose of my "loophole" is to point out that in human discourse, people often lack knowledge, and that acquiring knowledge can transform their views. I mean the word in a broad sense, not in the narrow institutional sense. It is a truism that very very few people who object to the Church's position actually know what that position is and on what basis it is held. A good example of this is the media-orchestrated reaction against the Pope's statements that abstinence and monogamy, not condoms, are the true answer to sexual ills in Africa (or anywhere else). The reaction was based entirely on a lack of knowledge of the basis of the Catholic Church's position, and so education really is the problem - people have not learned to really understand what it is they deny or object to.

Yeah, that's a good example. But I'm not objecting to the Church's position. You are objecting to my position. And you're saying that I'm not educated enough (thought it through; experienced enough; whatever fulfills the educational requirement in this case) to be able to speak about this belief. Because if I was educated enough, I would agree with you.

rusmeister wrote:Acceptance of the faith is not speculation. It is a choice, based on the kind of evidence you admit you would accept if it happened to you personally, which, regardless of its subjectivity, would be true. It is a choice to accept a report as true. Furthermore, if one finds that the authority accepted is consistently right, then the perception ceases to be subjective and becomes objective. So the initial causes to accept the authority may be subjective, but with an authority that is always right, it becomes clear (gradually or suddenly) that it is not teaching something merely subjective, but objective.
So speculation is out of court altogether because it implies that I come up with this stuff myself. In the case of the Christian Church, it is not thinking and pondering about something, still less idle, casual, or inconclusive review. It is acceptance of revelation; that a claim of revelation is true.

That's certainly the best explanation of the whole idea I've ever heard. Nicely done!

rusmeister wrote:I do fathom that others do not feel that way. It is obvious to all that there area million ideas on what the nature of truth is; the most popular today being that there is no truth, or that truth is a purely personal, completely non-objective thing. The authority I accept explains why this is so. And until you can talk to me about Orthodox theology, I have every right to say that you have not learned what it is my faith teaches and do not understand.

Again, I do not claim to understanding the least part of your faith. Therefore, I don't dispute any of it.

rusmeister wrote:The fact that you keep saying things like "because the Bible says so" (in other posts), something that I never say, shows that you haven't really attempted understanding - the more so when you deliberately limit yourself to whatever I will say here and now.

No, that's not what happened. I said the sources of revelation - the sources of your faith - are things "written in the Bible or taught by the Orthodox Church." "Taught by the OC" covers quite a bit of ground, I'm sure. Texts other than the Bible; traditions; sermons; etc. But, surely, the Bible is the highest of all sources?!? So I said it specifically, and lumped all the other, secondary, things together.

I believe that Science is to religion as to the senses are to what we can observe. Science is what humans can objectively observe and religion, I believe is like one of the sixth senses that is what some can perceive as objective but others will never be able to perceive. Not everyone can see hear and feel it. Like animals who hear noises that we cannot, there are some of us who will have a perception for religion. They will be able to feel it or sense it or see it or hear it, others will be able to have the same capability. Some who never "feel" religion are religious because of what they have been taught. Some can have a "feeling" of what religion is because it is naturally a "sense" that is what they woud perceive a a fact. Others wait for the moment to witnes or feel a sense of spirituality but it never appears. Of course, this is my perception. It is difficult to convince someone who has not experienced- of an experience unless they have actually experienced it. For example, someone who has never been able to see the color red will never have the same experience of someone who is.
Science has determined that there are distinct brain differences that shows where the regions of the brain religos thoughts are. There is a part of the brain that is directly related to religious thoughts and beliefs of people, although this is still preliminary. Being able to be flexible in thoughts is somewhat difficult for some. People should try to be open minded to other's beliefs. By doing so, the reasoning behind their belief will be more easily understood.

Raen! Hey, do you think if you whacked Fist upside the head with a 2x4, he'd have a religious revelation? Kinda like that Zen koan, y'know?

I'm causing trouble tonight, sorry....

She's made me see God a few times, but lumber was never involved.

Fist and Faith wrote:She's made me see God a few times, but lumber was never involved.

Nice to see you around Raen.

--A

Aliantha- Ain't gonna happen- You could knock him cold out and he would not change his mind. Ironically, I dare to share that his brother is a minister. Its also funny- I should mention, his 6 year old daughter asked him on a whim- which he really got a kick out of: "I wonder why we exist". She's a kid under her dad's own heart!