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Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:56 am
by Horrim Carabal
lord bane wrote: As for the Illearth Stone, I like to imagine it was originally a perfect emerald lodestone. Lost during the first Ritual of Desecration. So when Foul found the Stone his jealousy knew no bounds. Channeling all his hatred he corrupted the very heart of the stone - a weapon against all green things growing ... or sumfin like that
It was the greatest bane hidden in the Earth by Foul when he worked at the Creator's side, corrupting his creation. So I don't think it was ever "good" in any way.

I also don't think Foul could corrupt or master the Elohim. I think they would be equal to any power of the Stone.
Spoiler
The fact that Kastenessen's madness was due to his being Appointed by the Elohim themselves seems to support this. If Foul could have created his own Kastenessen by corrupting an Elohim he would have tried it ages ago.
If nothing else it would have amused him.

...wait, are we still using spoilers for LC stuff or did that expire on Jan 1?

Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:50 am
by Horrim Carabal
Nanothnir wrote:I guess still using spoilers. Personally, I am new to the series and have only finished FC. I try to avoid the LC forums to prevent knowing how the series ends before I read the rest of the novels.
Glad I used the spoiler tags then! :)

Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:44 am
by Fist and Faith
You figured it out! No point in reading the books now.

:mrgreen:

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:07 am
by Horrim Carabal
I've always liked Elena, but she is barking mad.

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:50 am
by Skyweir
Aye .. that she was 😬

High Lord Elena

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:34 am
by SleeplessOne
Horrim Carabal wrote:I've always liked Elena, but she is barking mad.
Were you dismayed at her vehemence?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:46 pm
by wayfriend
:thumbsup:

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:39 pm
by Ur Dead
In today's world Elena might be considered bipolar, or tri-polar, or
quad-polar, or the quientessential of backwards..

Nope wait, if she was that she be Anele .... A raving mad hollian and sundering effect.

NM...

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:22 am
by Horrim Carabal
Ur Dead wrote:In today's world Elena might be considered bipolar
Delusional, dissociative disorder, possible psychotic episodes, borderline personality disorder, multiple neuroses, manic-depressive.

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:15 am
by Lazy Luke
Aren't you being a little one-sided!

Mhoram had once said, everyone loves Elena. Because, I guess, she loved hospitality, learning, seeking knowledge, books, words and reading, antiquarianism, truth and things of the past, hard work, beards, foreigners, trees, woods and rocky places, beauty, sunshine, wine, the lower classes, flowers and gardens, running water, admiration of horses and animals, sculpture, electricity, and my personal favourite ... a feverish desire to undress :wink:

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:40 am
by Skyweir
And had serious daddy issues 😬 and then exploded 😬

Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:02 am
by Lazy Luke
health and healing
:?:

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:17 am
by Skyweir
:P

Its not my fault she took on a gorignak ;)

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:39 am
by Ur Dead
Skyweir wrote::P

Its not my fault she took on a gorignak ;)
Kevin was just having a bad day....

He wasn't soulless he just lost his lore.

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:18 pm
by Horrim Carabal
Actually Elena is one of may fave SRD characters. I could talk about her all day.

Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:43 pm
by Feanor1999
Hi Illender...

I don’t think she could have ever stayed away from the earthpower. She said herself, she as High Lord could never have ignored something that may have ended the war. Even though she was skating on thin ice as regards understanding and using it. Plus she had to keep Covenant near on the off chance of his potential ‘treachery’ and onside. I will always wonder how the hell Covenant never made the connection between her and Lena in the first place. Their names are virtually the same after all !

High Lord Elena

Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:42 pm
by Helen Blood
For my first act of thread necrophilia:

Feanor1999 wrote: ↑ I will always wonder how the hell Covenant never made the connection between her and Lena in the first place. Their names are virtually the same after all
What gets me is when they first meet, he notices that her eyes are “gray like his own.” And the description of her hair is exactly the same as of Lena's, “brown with flashes of honey.” Hmmm...

But I'm thinking he was distracted by some of his other feelings about her and maybe just didn't want it to be true. Also, even knowing how time moves differently in the Land, it's a little disorienting that she's actually older than him by about twelve years at this point. And of course, he had no way of knowing he'd made Lena pregnant.

One of those intriguing moments where readers know something the main character hasn't figured out yet.



Some other good takeaways from this thread:

Elena was raised in an emotionally unstable environment.

Yes. I just want to dig into that a little, because it's so...Southern Gothic, almost. Change the setting and it might be a lost Faulkner story:

Her mother idolized the man who raped her and believed that she had stopped her own aging in order to be appealing to him upon his return—her great hope in life was that he would come back for her.

Lena being caught up in her madness, you would expect Elena to be raised by her grandparents—but Trell and Atiaran were each in their own way also consumed by the injury Covenant did to their daughter, undone by Lena's response to it as well as their own.

So Elena was more or less raised by the man who would have been her stepfather, had her mother not been so completely mad. And while he was certainly “dour,” Triock did a pretty good job, under the circumstances; Elena grew up to be brilliant and powerful, not only getting accepted and making it through the Loresraat and onto the Council, but becoming High Lord—when someone like Mhoram was also available for the job. Not bad for a bastard child of rape from Mithil Stonedown.

She was crazy.

Of course, she's not quite right. Who would be? On top of her family, there was Covenant's ill-advised “gift” of sending the Ranyhyn to visit once a year—bad for the Ranyhyn, not so great for Elena, either. Because, the Horserite.

The Ranyhyn aren't to blame. They were trying to communicate, trying to warn her, as later they tried to warn Linden. They meant for the story of the Father of Horses to show her the risk of hubris, of taking on the Despiser one-on-one (unless you happen to be the white gold—and even then, extreme caution is advised...) But Elena apparently took it as encouragement and carried this ambition into her career on the Council.

She was a tool of Foul.

So is pretty much everyone in the books, except possibly the Creator. The thing is, it doesn't matter; real victory comes from understanding this.

She made a terrible choice about how to use the Power of Command.

Her flaw, the terrifying face Covenant sees and no one else appears to, the tragic focus of that otherwhere gaze, is a single-minded, all-out hatred of Lord Foul. I mean, no one likes him—but while she does ardently serve the Land, up under that she has devoted her life to becoming a weapon against him. Not in the sense of overpowering him in a confrontation, she's smarter than that, but more in terms of winning the chess game that is Foul's multi-layered plot(s) against the Land. IMO, she sees summoning Kevin as a masterstroke in that game—because she's blinded by her own hatred and confidence.

And it all comes back to a larger theme of the first three books: hatred. What is it good for? Can it be a force against Despite? An answer?

Not directly. This is clearly shown by Elena's fate, as well as by the outcome of Covenant's solo journey though the snow in Power That Preserves. Hatred on its own doesn't work, nor does raw power, or intelligence in either lore or battle.

But mixed with other intentions and emotions—balanced, contained, controlled...maybe that's part of the answer. Witnessing Elena's tragic story, among other tragedies and gifts, makes it possible for both Mhoram and Covenant to figure this out. His own participation in her tragedy gives the lesson an extra edge for Covenant.

It doesn't end well for her personally—did anyone else catch the full horror of that title the Raver gives her, “Foul-wife?”

But at least she is set free as any of the Dead by the destruction of the Staff of Law. Until Last Chronicles, of course...but that's literally another story.

Then again,, there's not really any good way to use the Power of Command.

Speaking of larger themes: the powerlessness of power. Still working my way into that one.

She is beautiful, tragic, doomed—one of the most appealing characters in the Chronicles.

When I first read these books, I was a very young nineteen, and what interested me most about Elena wasn't her power or her craziness; it was her love for Covenant. I wanted her to get the guy she wanted so badly. I wanted Covenant to have something more than just a doomed yearning for his ex-wife. And I was horrified that if this happened, it would be—technically at least, even if not in Elena's view—incest.

I identified with both of them. Despite their obvious flaws, I loved both of them. I wanted it to end well—and I knew there was no way it could.

So yeah; she's one of my favorite characters, and one I feel sorriest for. I may disagree with some of her decisions, but can't help responding to her as most of the other characters do: with longing and dread.

“Weave a circle round [her] thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread
For [s]he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.”

(Apologies to Coleridge.)

Milk of paradise, waters of the tarn, Blood of the Earth. It's all about the holy madness—and the need, too often neglected, to protect oneself from it.

High Lord Elena

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:00 am
by Fist and Faith
I'm very happy you joined us, Ms. Blood. *bow*

High Lord Elena

Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:04 am
by Savor Dam
(referring to @Helen Blood 's lengthy and noteworthy post on prior page)

That is the kind of analysis at which the Watch once excelled. Well done!

The Falkner bits hit pretty hard. Hadn't made those connections before; despite knowing SRD would draw on such literary roots as a young author nee literature student. Next reread will be colored with those perspectives.

High Lord Elena

Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:34 am
by Cord Hurn
Excellent post all around, Helen Blood!
Helen Blood wrote:But I'm thinking he was distracted by some of his other feelings about her and maybe just didn't want it to be true. Also, even knowing how time moves differently in the Land, it's a little disorienting that she's actually older than him by about twelve years at this point. And of course, he had no way of knowing he'd made Lena pregnant.
I believe this absolutely nails the reasons why Covenant couldn't connect Elena with her mother, even with the clue of the Atiaran/Trell family symbol of leaves woven on her tunic.