Kevin's Watch

bikebryan wrote:I really disliked The Power That Preserves. I can't lay out a specific reason, just the overall tone of the book turned me off.

bikebryan wrote: I'd have to say it was the pace. The entire book just creeped along. Anymore if I pick it up I go straight to the end, which was powerful. The entire rest of the book I could do without.

I'm with you on this. When I do a re-read I often skip the part where Covenant is crawling along with his shattered ankle. There is also a quite bit with Lena in it which is unremittingly sad.

I'd say it has a lot has to do with the Land being so oppressed by Elena's use of the Staff of Law. If you think about it the Land is only free from oppression in LFB and TIW, which may be why so many people (myself included) choose The Illearth War as their favourite. I like TOT as well, again maybe because we are free of the stress that the Land is under. Shows you the quality of SRD as a writer that he can convey that sense so powerfully

u.

Zenlunatic wrote:What the F is this thread?...Least favorite book of the Chronicles...come on, that's like asking what's your least favorite way to have an orgasm...BJ, straight, masturbation, something kinky...dude, it don't matter cause it all cums out the same in the end...when you compare these books to all the other "dross" that's out there...and believe me there is a lot of "deflating" stuff out there...there is no "least favorite"...these books are a breath of fresh air in a cess pool of fantasy literature...

DAMN that was a good post.

Also, I'd like to mention that TWL for me was a fantastic reading experience. I'd read the first 3 books in a week, devouring them in every spare second I had...and then to dive into the second series...I read TWL in two or three days, couldn't wait to get home from school and pick it up again...I had dreams about the Sunbane & Lord Foul...it was great!

TIW was my least favorite... most of it was sheer torture for me. It was a "gives me back something broken" situation on so many levels. I wanted to yell and argue against the author for days after I read that book.

Also, I'm lousy at spatial reasoning (and was really lazy about it then) so the battle scenes would lose me.
(I think a Watcher once said "I am like an anti-Hile-Troy when it comes to spatial reasoning.")
I'd space out while reading them instead of trying to build a picture of what was happening, and then just be like, "I want to know what the final consequence of this is going to be." (kind of awful)

ussusimiel wrote:

bikebryan wrote: I'd have to say it was the pace. The entire book just creeped along. Anymore if I pick it up I go straight to the end, which was powerful. The entire rest of the book I could do without.

I'm with you on this. When I do a re-read I often skip the part where Covenant is crawling along with his shattered ankle. There is also a quite bit with Lena in it which is unremittingly sad.

Awww.. I loved TPTP the most of all of them.
Finding Lena insane was rough, but better than the torment of not knowing what had happened to her at all...
I think Covenant's sense of torment about his guilt towards her had just increased my sense of urgency to find out "What happened to her?"
The re-defining of Covenant's relationship to Lena: "No; you will be my Queen.": Beautiful.

I found tons of TPTP so beautiful, though the betrayal of that young Ramen man was hard to take.
There are few things I loved more in the Chrons than the part with the Morrinmoss healer.

The idea of this thread is almost (as for some others) inconceivable for me as long as it is the first two Chronicles we are talking about. For me, without giving away any plot details, the 3rd Chrons are no longer part of 'The Chrons' at all. I know these pages are designated to be specifically reated to the first and second series (telling in itself really) but the 3rd series sits so poorly alongside it's predesesors that I would like very much to give it the following acolade:-

, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Just thought I'd get that of my chest!

peter wrote:The idea of this thread is almost (as for some others) inconceivable for me as long as it is the first two Chronicles we are talking about. For me, without giving away any plot details, the 3rd Chrons are no longer part of 'The Chrons' at all.

I agree with you that the choice of the word 'worst' for this thread was either unfortunate or deliberately provocative. 'Least brilliant' or''only fantastic' would have been more appropriate.

I also agree with you about the Last Chrons. They are almost a totally separate set of books from the 1st and 2nd Chronicles, as far as I'm concerned. One of the things I like about this forum is that even though it's for SRD fans there is plenty of room for criticism and there are a large number of people here who are disappointed with the latest books.

I presume you've come across some threads critical of the Last Chrons, if not, here are a few to have a look at:

• A Prosaic Confession (this is a recent thread, so avoid it if you haven't read AATE),
  
  Unfettered by the Last Chronicles (this is mine, be wary of spoilers if you haven't read FR),
  
  Editing in the last chronicles... (again, be careful of spoilers if you haven't read FR).

To be clear, I think SRD is brilliant (in many ways I am a fanboy ). As he has said many times in the Gradual Interview and other places, the Chronicles are his story and he can do what he likes with them. If I don't like or approve of what he does with his story, I can express my disappointment by stopping buying and reading the books.

u.

Wow, peter, if you don't feel better after that I fear for you...never thought I'd see years of primal scream therapy done completely with one swell foop of emoticons.

But I really posted here to be completely off topic and say
HAH!! Linna!! Strongbad in your sig brought back memories...I haven't been check'n m-email in so long, I'm gonna head over there. Computer over, virus=very yes.

Yeah Vraith - That felt good I have to admit!

Usussimiel - Thanks for the links. I'll have a good look at them to see if there are any criticisms of the 3rd Chrons I have missed making myself .

But seriously I cannot agree with SRD's stance from the GI. The Chrons are not his to do with as he likes. He wrote them for us, He gave them to us. They are ours. Which one of us would give a gift and then claim rights over it after it is made. What he does in the 3rd chrons effects our perception of the first two, and as such he has responsibility even in the case of his unwritten works. He may choose to abrogate this, but in doing so he must accept the risk of our opprobrium.
Also the view that we can just stop buying the books if we don't like what they have become, while true at it's most basic level, is to miss the point entierly. I cannot 'not' read the series to it's completion nomatter what happens. He could choose to hsve little green men land in a space ship on Lords Keep and say "Take me to your leader!" and I would still be there reading along. To believe that I could 'stop reading' the chrons because I din't like what they have become is to completely fail to understand the impact they had in my life. I am there till the end, for good or ill.

They are commercial works to which he owns the full creative rights. He can do whatever he likes with them, and nobody is obligated to buy them.

Murrin wrote:They are commercial works to which he owns the full creative rights. He can do whatever he likes with them, and nobody is obligated to buy them.

Indeed.

peter wrote: Yeah Vraith - That felt good I have to admit!

Usussimiel - Thanks for the links. I'll have a good look at them to see if there are any criticisms of the 3rd Chrons I have missed making myself .

But seriously I cannot agree with SRD's stance from the GI. The Chrons are not his to do with as he likes. He wrote them for us, He gave them to us. They are ours. Which one of us would give a gift and then claim rights over it after it is made. What he does in the 3rd chrons effects our perception of the first two, and as such he has responsibility even in the case of his unwritten works. He may choose to abrogate this, but in doing so he must accept the risk of our opprobrium.
Also the view that we can just stop buying the books if we don't like what they have become, while true at it's most basic level, is to miss the point entierly. I cannot 'not' read the series to it's completion nomatter what happens. He could choose to hsve little green men land in a space ship on Lords Keep and say "Take me to your leader!" and I would still be there reading along. To believe that I could 'stop reading' the chrons because I din't like what they have become is to completely fail to understand the impact they had in my life. I am there till the end, for good or ill.

This actually says more about how you feel, than the correctness of his stance. [which is not at all to say you have no right to your reactions/invalidity to your response]. But in addition to the simple factual nature of the issue that Murrin so succinctly stated, you have to look at it from the artists viewpoint. If he attempted what you say, gave those concerns dominion over the needs/integrity/identity of the story/char's, over his commitment to its purpose/coherence,...if he were that kind of person I think it's unlikely he'd have been the kind who could write the parts you love. Not to mention that attitude in an author is a common road to mediocrity. [at best]. And I'm not at all sure he's taking a gift back, it's that you don't like the one he's giving you...or that he did his best to give a great gift, and just [as humans do] failed.

Certainly SRD owns the creative rights to the works and can 'do what he likes with them'. But this is a literal stance not in keeping the the 'spirit' of what I was trying to express. I have more sympathy with the reasoning in Vraith's post than with the 'It's mine, I'll do what I like with it and to hell with you lot' stance and I think it probably comes closer to the truth.

In respect of the 'obligation' to buy. That is one I 'self-impose' I guess and I'm not sure that I can explain why. Perhaps for the same reason one might keep going to see a friend who had become something one didn't like - out of love and respect for what they once were. I don't know.

peter wrote:But seriously I cannot agree with SRD's stance from the GI. The Chrons are not his to do with as he likes. He wrote them for us, He gave them to us. They are ours....

Also the view that we can just stop buying the books if we don't like what they have become, while true at it's most basic level, is to miss the point entierly. I cannot 'not' read the series to it's completion nomatter what happens....

To believe that I could 'stop reading' the chrons because I din't like what they have become is to completely fail to understand the impact they had in my life. I am there till the end, for good or ill.

Murrin wrote:They are commercial works to which he owns the full creative rights. He can do whatever he likes with them, and nobody is obligated to buy them.

I started off in your position, peter, and it took a while (and the GI and some compelling arguments from people like Murrin and Vraith) for me to appreciate the position Murrin lays out above.

As it is, because I admire SRD so much now as a person, I actually want to see how he completes the huge task he set himself. I am now less interested in the fictional story than how it turns out in real life. I am also interested in the impact the existence of the Last Chrons has had on this forum (that's my interest in sociology showing ). And I like to speculate that SRD's decision to continue the Chronicles is somehow connected to the spirit of this forum, pure sociological fantasy I'm sure, but it has drawn together a group of people who have shown remarkable resilience and commitment as a virtual (and RL) community. This is not to be underestimated. Without the Last Chrons you would definitely not be having this conversation and and the vitality of this forum might only be a shadow of what it is.

I personally think that it is not a coincidence that a forum as vital as the Watch is centered around the works of an author like SRD. That being the case, then for me the power of the fictional work has become transmuted and transformed into the real world. Wow! What an achievement. SRD did that with the 1st and the 2nd Chronicles, so I am willing to give him a pass on the Last Chrons or I am willing to trust that maybe his intentions are more pure and more generous than we perceive them to be.

u.

Murrin is right. It's SRD's entirely, and he can do what he wants with it.

And I can pretend the Final Chrons never existed.

Strangely enough Ussusimiel, pretty much the same thoughts occured to me yesterday after I was musing on the content of this thread later in the day. My adult life pretty much began with the Chrons being a very important part of it (I first encountered the books at about age 18 and was hooked [to small a word] from day one) and here I am and 30+ years on they re-manifest in my life transmuted into the Watch and once again become a major influence on me. Thus SRD's input into my life cannot be underestimated and it will certainly not be spoiled by my 3rd Chrons experience. The idea that the Watch itself plays it's role in the 'forward and back' laws of the artist/patron dynamic is a good one and exiting to contemplate.

Though the idea seems to atract animus of varying degrees, I myself cannot see the problem with the idea that the artist has some degree of responsibility to satisfy the requirements of his partrons. Put most simply if I tune in to watch say Dallas or Baywatch on the telly, having watched 20 previous episodes - and this week I find that Bobby Ewing or Pam Anderson are instead doing it ala James Joyces 'Ulysees', I think I have a right to be pissed. The script writer (or whoever) owns the rights, but no-one would expect the viewers to stomoch a change of style that so far removed it from it's original form as to make it nearly unrecognisable. Why then would an author be different?

(Incidentally I have major reservations about the desirability of this on the basis of it's possibly deleterious effects ont he art produced - a point raised by Vraith above - but this is I believe a different argument altogether.)

peter wrote:Though the idea seems to atract animus of varying degrees, I myself cannot see the problem with the idea that the artist has some degree of responsibility to satisfy the requirements of his partrons. Put most simply if I tune in to watch say Dallas or Baywatch on the telly, having watched 20 previous episodes - and this week I find that Bobby Ewing or Pam Anderson are instead doing it ala James Joyces 'Ulysees', I think I have a right to be pissed. The script writer (or whoever) owns the rights, but no-one would expect the viewers to stomoch a change of style that so far removed it from it's original form as to make it nearly unrecognisable. Why then would an author be different?

(Incidentally I have major reservations about the desirability of this on the basis of it's possibly deleterious effects ont he art produced - a point raised by Vraith above - but this is I believe a different argument altogether.)

I'm fairly sure I understand what you mean. I won't go into it here as it would require excessive spoiler tags, but if SRD wanted to write more about the Land there were plenty of avenues open to him other than the one he chose. But that has a direct bearing on the reservations that you express about artistic integrity. If SRD were simply in it for the cash he'd have chosen the other options, but he's not, so once he decided that he was going to go ahead with the project he had to be true to himself and in so doing be true to his audience. What we as the audience get is a view on an artist attempting something very difficult (and maybe failing). I always prefer to see an artist try something new and fail rather than stay in their comfort zone.

u.

Here's how I view it: You have, very basically, two types of writers. You have the writer as a job position, and a writer as an artist. Sometimes, they cross, but that's neither here but perhaps there.
Anyway, the writer as job position writes to be read by as many people as possible. These are your Michael Crichtons, Neil Gaimans, Stephen Kings, Dean Koontzs, etc. Saying that they are ignoring the audience, as such, is a good criticisms because that what they are writing for. Any artistry is merely a side effect.

The writer as an artist writes for his art. These are the Oscar Wildes, Leo Tolstoys, James Joyces, etc. They write what the need to write, and if people like it, that's merely a side effect.

I believe Donaldson lies more with the second group than the first. He has to write to be true to the vision of the story, and we are invited to come along if we wish. That invitation, however, does not mean he owes us anything but what he invited us for. If I invite you to a dinner at Red Lobster, I'm not obligated to provide you with an Applebee's dinner. Likewise, you are perfectly in your right to refuse the invitation.

I fail to see anything in the Last Chrons that violates or "ruins" anything about the First or Second Chrons.

I mean come on, the thematic shifts that SRD has introduced have been there at least since TOT.

I'm not really interested in a long-winded debate over whether the Last Chrons measures up to the First or Second. In my opinion, they form one long, cohesive story.

As a matter of personal preference, I like the First Chrons the best, Second Chrons next, and Last Chrons last, but the difference is basically due to my nostalgia for the earlier books, which I read when I was young and impressionable.

But that having been said, I loved the new books and can't wait for The Last Dark.

If you don't like the Last Chrons, fine. But don't pretend there is some obvious flaw or change in the story that justifies your feeling. The Last Chronicles aren't The Phantom Menace, The Wolves of the Calla, the Matrix Reloaded, or even The Godfather, part III (a movie I quite like, btw, but it does fit the example).

The Last Chrons are an organic extension of the first two series, albeit with some new plot threads, characters, and story focus. They measure up quite well to the earlier works, IMO.

No. There is not only contradiction, but also retroactive continuity. However, this stuff can't be discussed here, the the 1st & 2nd Chrons forum. But it's discussed in the Final forum.

Horrim Carabal wrote: I'm not really interested in a long-winded debate over whether the Last Chrons measures up to the First or Second. In my opinion, they form one long, cohesive story.

I don't know how cohesive it is, but it certainly is a long story!

"No man but a blockhead ever wrote exept for money." (Q. Samuel Johnson. Boswell's Life, vol iii p.96, 5 April 1776.)

(:lol: No guy's - thats a joke. Ok, ok - I concede. Mayhap my position on this needs reviewing!)