Kevin's Watch

It seems obvious to me that using white gold and Law at the same time was a risk; most of the Second Chronicles was predicated on the danger of too MUCH power rather than too little. And Covenant chose his role as the 'Timewarden', and presumably it's quite an important one.

Yet Linden still uses both WG and Law at once to bring Covenant back (which as far as she knows could make it impossible for him to keep protecting Time). And why? As far as I can tell, it's simply because she's at a loss as to what else to do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really hate Linden as a character. But I think it's impossible to defend her actions in FR as the sensible ones to make under the circumstances. Though I'm sure SRD will work it all out in the end.

Yes, there are risks to her actions. It would not be much of a story without risk. And there would be no reward without risk. That's hardly a damning statement. Which heroes in the Chronicles took no risks?

And we also know that "anything worth saving won't be destroyed by choices like that."

You could say that Linden restored Covenant in the Kemper's hold "because she was at a loss as to what else to do". Covenant summoned Nom at the Gates of Revelstone "because he was at a loss as to what else to do". Mhoram summoned Drinny and marched out of Revelstone "because he was at a loss as to what else to do". Covenant marched to Foul's Creche without a plan, entered the Banefire, gave his life, "because he was at a loss as to what else to do".

Discovering a way to persevere and triumph when things look impossible: you can call it "at a loss as to what else to do" if you want to. But it gives away your prejudgement to paint everything in as bad a light as possible. After you take away the layer of smear, what substantial is being said?

So far I have found all Linden's actions defensible. I have also seen comments from readers who first allow no defense to be sufficient, and then decry Linden for being reckless. Clearly to me, the judgement was made first, and then the text was interpreted to match the preexisting judgement.

Indeed....,

Well spoken, Wayfriend!!!

ellll

It seems to me that bringing Covenant back to life was so inherently risky that it should have been Linden's last resort. Perhaps I'm missing something in the text, but at this point in the story Linden seems to have many other courses to choose: the Insequent, the orcrest, the new power of the Staff, the krill, even the Giants represent possibilities she has hardly explored.

My reading is that Linden brings Covenant back because she wants him back, because she feels the need for his support and advice. I don't read his resurrection as part of a specific plan; rather it is a consequence of her emotional fragility at that point.

It's not a question of pre-judging her and finding her wanting. I just don't see a specific need, at that point in her story, for her to use the apparently awesome potential of the krill for what could very well have been a hugely harmful rather than beneficial purpose. I don't see that the story has forced her to resurrect Covenant; she hasn't tried and failed all other options and she hasn't been advised to do so (quite the contrary).

I think any accurate reading of FR has to conclude that Linden is bringing Covenant back for personal reasons rather than because she feels it is best for the Land or its people.

Alberich, good points in your last post (I haven't read much else--I'm behind in this forum).

As usual, I like to analyze this from a storytelling perspective. In order for there to be the "proper" amount of tension, Linden's actions need to be dangerous. There needs to be doubt in the readers' minds about whether or not her actions are the right thing to do, and if it's going to lead to disaster. That expectation has got to be intentional, otherwise Donaldson wouldn't have bothered to build it up and include characters who think this is the wrong decision. So it's perfectly legitimate to criticize Linden's actions along these lines, because that just means you're noticing something Donaldson intentionally wanted you to notice.

At the same time, ambiguity is also another necessary storytelling element. There needs to be some room for Linden to "redeem" herself. We all know how Donaldson likes to find strength in weakness, and vice versa. And I believe he has made victory-in-defeat another trademark as well. So Wayfriend's points are valid, too. At this point in the text, I think there's evidence to make either case: Linden is doing what she feels is right, but there's room for us as observers to doubt whether this is the best route. Otherwise, there'd be a lot less tension.

I wonder . . . if she hatched this plan to return Covenant in FR, what did she intend to do with the Staff when she got it in the first place? Don't worry, I'm not going to resurrect that old thread! But Donaldson's explanation of why she originally wanted the staff was along the lines of "using sniper rifle instead of a nuclear bomb," because it was supposed to be a lot safer than the Ring. Well, resurrecting Covenant isn't "sniping." And this weapon comparison was intended to highlight the difference between the Ring and the Staff--i.e. why should couldn't attack her problems with the former, and needed the latter. But then she goes and combines these two with yet another token of power--the krill--in one colossal explosion of Law-violating power. How does the sniper comparison hold up under those terms? How does using the Ring and Staff together confirm her need to use the Staff instead of the Ring? Either Donaldson's explanation of her needing the Staff (in both Runes and in the GI) was disingenuous, or she hadn't yet hatched her plan to resurrect Covenant at the time she gave those reasons. Thus, she is currently acting counter to her original reasons for getting the Staff, i.e. a safe alternative to the ring in order to fight Foul, save Jeremiah, save the Land, etc.

So this is a roundabout way to say: yes, I think she is doing something dangerous, ill-conceived, and self-contradictory. I think she was driven by emotional motives. And I think these motives have their origin in the darkness she let into her heart after the encounter at Skyweir--the darkness that made her feel a kinship with the death saturating Gallows Howe. She became the woman who doesn't forgive, and that's scary if you ask me.

Unfortunately, Linden has chosen to hide her intention to resurrect Covenant from her companions, and the author has similarly chosen to hide them from us. So we can't really see exactly what the author says about her motivation.

However, it is entirely fair to extrapolate from her character as it has been established, to let her past actions be a guide in deciding how to interpret this one.

In the story so far, we have not seen Linden acting impulsively or irrationally since coming to the Land. Lord Foul has her son, and innumerable god-like enigmas have come out of the woodwork to make her feel small and incompetent. But despite being pushed in these ways, she's made plans and stuck to them.

First, she's done everything she could to understand the situation. She's questioned Anele, the Masters, Esmer, the Mahdoubt ... everyone who seems to know what is going on.

Second, she's done everything she could to gain allies. The Ramen. The Ranyhyn. The urviles and the Waynhim. Giants. Even the Masters.

Third, she's done everything she could do to gain power. The ring, the Staff, and the krill. Even the Ranyhyn and urviles are a signicant power, because of their ability to help control ceasures.

And she's done all of these things BEFORE attempting to rescue her son. Before trying to save the Land. This is not an emotional or irrational response. This is a plan.

You say that she has alternatives. I don't see them. And in fact, I don't even think it is pertinant. She's smart enough to know that she needs to get EVERYTHING that she can get before she faces Foul. She's not picking and choosing from her available options, she's taking them all.

If we extrapolate to this case, we can easily argue that she's chosen to resurrect Covenant because he has knowledge that she needs, and because she needs allies, and because she needs power. Covenant represents power, at least because she feels like she can't use the ring as effectively as she wants to.

Sure, she loves Covenant, and she misses him. Sure, that means that there is a personal side to this decision. But its easy to see that these are side issues, and that she has a valid, well thought out plan for bringing Covenant into the story.

[Edit]Malik, you can't argue that the Staff was unnecessary if she was resurrecting Covenant. Because she needed the Staff to do that. Even if she has no further use for the Staff, that one act was sufficient to justify acquiring it.

As I said, I think she's trying to load for bear. She's not picking which weapons to use, she's loading up with ALL of them.

As long as she has the Staff, she has the option to operate as "a sniper", even if she has an "atomic bomb" at her disposal. Options are good, more options are better, all options are best. Covenant may be "da bomb" but that doesn't make the Staff acedemic.

I agree.... also she isnt the person TC is. She followed TC around throught the Second Chrons and made very few decisions on her own. She made some secondary decisions but for the most part, the goal was always set by TC. And even though she didnt agree with many of the things he did, she knows that he was able to defeat Foul. Would she have surrendered the ring if it had just been her? I doubt it... she didnt trust herself.. in the end.. she trusted TC. So here we are in the Last Chrons she is the one making decisions and calling all the shots. She doesnt know what to do half the time. She is doing things and hoping for the best and sometimes feeling as if its not the right decisions. That and she is no closer to finding Jeremiah!

So she now has the ability to bring TC back.. Think about the trust she has in him after the Second Chrons victory. He will know what to do. He will make it all right again just as he did last time.

I can see why she made this decision.

WF, I wasn't arguing that the Staff was unnecessary (in fact, I was never arguing that point, even in the original thread). I was merely saying that SRD's reasoning for getting the Staff was because the ring is inherently uncontrollable and too powerful. Sniper rifle instead of nuclear bomb. But her actual goal in the 2nd book is to use Ring + Staff + krill. She wants to use a power so great that it takes the addition of the krill just to manage it. That seems a contradiction from SRD's original reason for getting the Staff. So either her plans have changed (i.e. her plans now include more "explosive" uses of power) or Donaldson was misleading us. I don't think he was misleading us. I think her plans have become more dangerous. I think she conceived the plan to resurrect Covenant after her encounter with Roger and the croyel.

Boy, great stuff here...

keep it up..maybe I'll learn better....(You are ahead of me in careful thinking....)

ellll

Malik23 wrote:I think she conceived the plan to resurrect Covenant after her encounter with Roger and the croyel.

Oh my gosh, of course she conceived of her plan after her encounter with Roger.

First of all, she had no reason to conceive of such a plan when she believed that Covenant was with her.

Roger laid it on pretty thick about how he (Thomas Covenant) was trying to save the Land and stop Foul. How Linden should place her trust in him and he would see it done. I'm sure that, after he was gone, Linden must have been thinking, yeah, Covenant *would* be a big help about now. He *would* be the best candidate to stop Foul. He *would* know what's going on, he *would* know what to do.

I'm sure Roger resurrected all of Linden's longings for Thomas, as well.

I'm thoroughly conviced myself that a main reason Donaldson chose to have Roger disguise himself as Thomas was precisely to give Linden this idea, and to make her long for it.

And, it's no small matter what was revealed in Earthroot. Linden discovered there who her enemies were. She measured herself against them... and almost failed. I'm sure that, right about then, she realized that she didn't have enough power to get the job done.

Her encounter with the Harrow, her battle with the Cavewights, would only reinforce that conclusion. She was barely sufficient to fend off her enemies, never mind defeat them.

The Staff was Linden's baby. It is the symbol of her eficacy in the Land. It's not any wonder that she would seek it out, for that sake alone.

And it's not any wonder that she changed her plan afterwards.

Malik23 wrote:WF, I wasn't arguing that the Staff was unnecessary (in fact, I was never arguing that point, even in the original thread). I was merely saying that SRD's reasoning for getting the Staff was because the ring is inherently uncontrollable and too powerful. Sniper rifle instead of nuclear bomb. But her actual goal in the 2nd book is to use Ring + Staff + krill. She wants to use a power so great that it takes the addition of the krill just to manage it. That seems a contradiction from SRD's original reason for getting the Staff. So either her plans have changed (i.e. her plans now include more "explosive" uses of power) or Donaldson was misleading us. I don't think he was misleading us. I think her plans have become more dangerous. I think she conceived the plan to resurrect Covenant after her encounter with Roger and the croyel.

I agree, and would add that her plans have changed in ways that do not seem entirely rational. As you say, she has shied away from WG because it is so difficult to control - yet now seems intent on using apocalyptic levels of power and doesn't even know if she NEEDS that power to fulfill her objectives.

I just refuse to believe that Linden is thinking clearly if she feels she needs the krill's ability to channel 'limitless' amounts of power. The only possible reason this might work would be if Covenant's ethereal association with the Arch of Time could somehow allow her to use more power than Foul did without breaking it. Yet she probably invalidates even that one chance by bringing back Covenant!

I don't understand why it is so difficult or unpleasant to interpret Linden's actions as those of a desperate woman acting irrationally under great emotional pressure. You have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to conclude otherwise.

Emotionally? Sure.

But acting irrationally? In the words of Bones McCoy "Damnit Alberich, she's a doctor."

She's out of options. Period. So either do SOMETHING that seems a bit risky and threaten the destruction of the world, or do NOTHING and ensure the world's destruction.

Seems rational to me.

Alberich wrote:I don't understand why it is so difficult or unpleasant to interpret Linden's actions as those of a desperate woman acting irrationally under great emotional pressure.

Because it's not written anywhere in Donaldson's story. Even if you think it might be, the author himself has said that it isn't so.

Alberich wrote:You have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to conclude otherwise.

I do have a hard time. It seems like I am jumping through hoops in order to responding to one baseless accusation after another.

For example, you complained that her fault was single-mindedness, with no reference to any material to back up the claim. When I referenced the material that showed her to be not single-minded, you changed your argument to her taking too many risks, with no reference to any material to back up the claim. When I referenced the material that demonstrated a defense for the risks she took, you changed your argument yet again to her having too much power, with nothing to pin it on. Again, I responded with material that showed that there was nothing mistaken about aquiring so much power, you changed your argument to her acting irrationally, again with nothing in the text to point to.

I can't keep up!

Please, PLEASE ... back up at least one argument with something, anything.

Alberich wrote:I just refuse to believe that Linden is thinking clearly if she feels she needs the krill's ability to channel 'limitless' amounts of power.

She had just fought off Roger and Jeremiah in Earthroot, and almost lost. And they are not as powerful as Kastenessen and Foul. How could she NOT think that she needs more power?!?!?!

Alberich wrote:I don't understand why it is so difficult or unpleasant to interpret Linden's actions as those of a desperate woman acting irrationally under great emotional pressure.

You know, I actually "hear" what Alberich is saying. I actually do think there is an element of this to Linden's character. I don't believe that she is always in control.

Sorry to slap a definition here but "irrational" can mean: without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.

Has she got mental clarity? Some, yes. She's got enough to walk out of Melenkurion Skyweir deciding she's going to resurrect Covenant. She's in control enough to execute that plan (with the help of her companions).

But she's full of revenge, she's resurrecting Covenant because she doesn't believe she can save the Land and the Earth by herself. She thinks Covenant is the world saver, not her. And, she's full of all this helplessness--she wants to find her son but he's probably doomed, she's probably doomed. Lord Foul has her son... etc etc.

I'd have trouble having mental clarity throughout all that. In my opinion she is deprived of normal mental clarity. She's emotion filled.

And is resurrecting Covenant a decision of "sound judgment"? I see it as being more of an emotional decision.

It's early here, and I probably haven't done a good job at explaining myself but I certainly think there's an element of desperation to Linden's actions, and also an element of irrationality. She's a complex woman!

wayfriend wrote:
For example, you complained that her fault was single-mindedness, with no reference to any material to back up the claim. When I referenced the material that showed her to be not single-minded, you changed your argument to her taking too many risks, with no reference to any material to back up the claim. When I referenced the material that demonstrated a defense for the risks she took, you changed your argument yet again to her having too much power, with nothing to pin it on.

I think her obsession with finding or saving Jeremiah is to the detriment of the Land. I don't see how it could NOT be. It's a big weakness that Roger and the croyel almost managed to exploit. Her intent, repeated all through the book, is to protect or save or avenge Jeremiah. To protect or save the Land seems almost incidental at times.

In the Land it is a risk to acquire, and especially to use, huge amounts of power; the entire Second Chronicles are basically founded on this idea. Linden does need better tactics - stronger allies, better plans, better information - but I don't know that she can justify a limitless acquisition of raw 'power'. She's just beaten off a host of skurj using a few giants and a raincloud. I don't see that she is 'without options'. How about looking for more giant allies? Looking for Foul and Jeremiah? Is there more orcrist in the Land? Why doesn't she seem interested in unlocking Anele's secrets? Or understanding Longwrath? Where are the other Insequent and can she contact them? And so on.

She has many options but decides very early on that she wants to go to Andelain in order to speak to her Dead. And I think we can take that to mean: Covenant. Why does she go for this one current among a sea of mixed advice and conflicting interests? Why does she feel that taking Covenant out of the Arch will weaken rather than strengthen Foul's position? Why does she not even ASK the Harrow where Jeremiah is? Because . . . after 'losing' him at Skyweir her mind is fixed on regaining Covenant. Since her plans are never revealed to us we can only speculate why.

The irony here is that it seems wayfriend has predetermined that I have predetermined to hate Linden, and that therefore I cannot possibly be just getting this idea from the book itself.

I suppose there are a lot of Linden loathers around here . . . ?

wayfriend wrote:

Malik23 wrote:I think she conceived the plan to resurrect Covenant after her encounter with Roger and the croyel.

Oh my gosh, of course she conceived of her plan after her encounter with Roger.

Yeah, I know it seems obvious. I wasn't trying to present my idea as groundbreaking in itself. I made that point to back up the idea that her intention changed for the worse. Not only has her goal changed due to an extremely emotional, negative encounter (leaving her as "the woman who doesn't forgive," someone who can appreciate deadly vengeance), but her methods have changed from the relatively safe tool of the Staff to the dangerous combination of Staff + Ring. So her caution in Runes (if you can call going back into time "caution") has given way to a vengeful risk-taking. That doesn't exactly fit the idea that she is making the right decisions.

Malik23 wrote:That doesn't exactly fit the idea that she is making the right decisions.

Well, you seem to be of the opinion that ONLY Linden's emotions went into her decision.

But, as I said, getting information is a sound strategy, and finding Covenant is another logical step, and getting more allies is a sound strategy, and finding Covenant is another logical step there too, and acquiring enough power to fend off the Harrow and Roger is also a sound strategy, and finding Covenant, who is the white gold, is another logical step for that too.

In addition, there have been clues pointing her towards this direction. Covenant's "find me" being one. Caer-Caveral's breaking of the Law of Life being another. And the pre-eminence of Roger and Joan in the Land being a rather large one.

So I cannot agree that there was ONLY emotion involved in this decision. There was strategy. And there was a logical conclusion.

Alberich wrote:I think her obsession with finding or saving Jeremiah is to the detriment of the Land.

This is just the lesson of the girl and the rattlesnake again. The Land cannot be truly damaged when it's defenders stand up for what they truly believe in. And the defenders of the Land are falling into despite's snares when they do not. Covenant eventually realized he should have given Seadreamer his caamora, etc.

Consider what would happen to Linden if she didn't try to save her son. You only need look to Joan for the answer. Linden would get eaten away by self doubt and self recrimination. She'd eventually despise herself. In the end, she'd be an enemy of the land, harming it in a misguided effort to expiate herself.

Alberich wrote:In the Land it is a risk to acquire, and especially to use, huge amounts of power;

Only certain kinds of power. It took a lot of power to cure the Sunbane. It took a lot of power to resurrect Hollian and Anele. Foul threw massive power at the Arch, too. These things were tolerable. So it's not ANY power that's a danger. And Linden has proven herself to be a delicate, careful weilder of power.

And let's not forget that Kastenessen and Roger and the croyel and the Harrow are throwing around more power than she can, currently. So she can't be making anything riskier than it already is.

Alberich wrote:How about looking for more giant allies? [...]And so on.

There's nothing that indicates that Linden has given up on any of these things because she's found Covenant. And there's everything that indicates that she can't really explore any of those options at the moment.

Alberich wrote:The irony here is that it seems wayfriend has predetermined that I have predetermined to hate Linden, and that therefore I cannot possibly be just getting this idea from the book itself.

Actually, no. I logically deduced that conclusion from the nature of your posts, Esp. a lack of supporting evidence, a fair amount of double-standards, and an argument that dodges around. I'm prepared to be wrong about it though.

Wayfriend and others..You KEEP my attention...Well Met!!

ellll

ellll wrote:Wayfriend and others..You KEEP my attention...Well Met!!

You do realize that at some point we're all going to realize you've been playing us off each other, and then we'll all unite against you...