Kevin's Watch

SoulBiter wrote:Keep in mind that God is not holding you accountable for Adam and Eve's sin. Some see original sin as something that you inherit from birth. But I havent seen anything in the bible that would lead me to believe that a newborn child for instance will go to hell for Adam and Eve's sin. You are only accountable for your own sins, not the sins of others and not the sins of Adam and Eve.

The point that is lost in original sin discussion (many times) is that because of Adam and Eve's sin (Eating of the tree) it became 'possible' for us to sin. An infant is born sinless and until such time as he/she commits a sin, they are without sin. The problem is that sooner or later.. if that child lives long enough, they will sin. And at that point they are in need of salvation.

That is the explanation I've heard from my (Catholic) church, but not what I heard from the Baptists. The Baptists explained that we're all held accountable for Adam & Eve's sin and fall.....In other words, we all start out behind the 8 ball.

Cail wrote:

SoulBiter wrote:Keep in mind that God is not holding you accountable for Adam and Eve's sin. Some see original sin as something that you inherit from birth. But I havent seen anything in the bible that would lead me to believe that a newborn child for instance will go to hell for Adam and Eve's sin. You are only accountable for your own sins, not the sins of others and not the sins of Adam and Eve.

The point that is lost in original sin discussion (many times) is that because of Adam and Eve's sin (Eating of the tree) it became 'possible' for us to sin. An infant is born sinless and until such time as he/she commits a sin, they are without sin. The problem is that sooner or later.. if that child lives long enough, they will sin. And at that point they are in need of salvation.

That is the explanation I've heard from my (Catholic) church, but not what I heard from the Baptists. The Baptists explained that we're all held accountable for Adam & Eve's sin and fall.....In other words, we all start out behind the 8 ball.

As a former Baptist, it was also my understanding that We were all stained by Original Sin.

The thing is, it was possible for Adam and Eve to sin because God made them that way. We aren't perfect -- but its because how we were made. If we were made perfect, we'd be perfect. But, becasue we are human, sooner or later, somebody was going to eat from that tree.

Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to think that even with freewill, we're capable of restraining ourselves from certain things.

But no, we're certainly not perfect.

Cail wrote:Maybe, maybe not. I'd like to think that even with freewill, we're capable of restraining ourselves from certain things.

Yes we are. And we do (or should do) so because we know the reasons for doing so. If there's no reason not to, (beyond "I told you so"), then...well, then there's no reason not to.

--A

Cail wrote:That is the explanation I've heard from my (Catholic) church, but not what I heard from the Baptists. The Baptists explained that we're all held accountable for Adam & Eve's sin and fall.....In other words, we all start out behind the 8 ball.

Hmm, I wonder, is it a technicality? Not sure, haven't dwelt on the matter.

Cybrweez wrote:

Cail wrote:That is the explanation I've heard from my (Catholic) church, but not what I heard from the Baptists. The Baptists explained that we're all held accountable for Adam & Eve's sin and fall.....In other words, we all start out behind the 8 ball.

Hmm, I wonder, is it a technicality? Not sure, haven't dwelt on the matter.

I THINK [reaching back to child-hood memories here] that this idea is founded on a literal interpretation of a statement in the bible that "The sins of the father are visited on the sons" and also something that God said to Adam and Eve at the time he kicked them out.

Right, but that sin was washed away with Christ's sacrifice. IOW, "the sins of the father (Adam)" were forgiven and the slate wiped clean 2000 years ago.

Cail wrote:

Rusmeister wrote:A number of things Cail has said are very true. However, I don't think that his beliefs even perfectly represent Catholicism as I know it - it strikes me as far too universalist (the belief that all will eventually be saved regardless of actions and choices in this life); they take concepts about God's love and mercy, and statements by Christ and the Apostles about them, and leave out the other parts and statements (by the same) that do warn of a genuine possibility of eternal destruction, for example

That's not what I said. What I said is that all can be saved regardless of their faith.

Hi, Cail! Christ is risen!

If you read my post carefully, you'll note that I don't charge you with saying specific things. I said "it strikes me as..." and went on to briefly explain what universalism is. Plus, I'm trying not to put words in your mouth or claim to know your mind. I'm only going on what you say.

Now I agree that it is possible to be saved "regardless of faith" - but only in the sense that it is possible that a significant asteroid will strike the earth over the next year. Possible - but probability is not very great, and the possibility is only due to the grace of God, who can perform miracles, and act outside of His Church - ie, we don't dictate to God. (Likewise, being a formal member is no guarantee of that ultimate salvation - but it does mean that you will have access to a lot more tools to increase that probability - that you will be guided correctly, putting it roughly.)

The kinds of belief that say "it doesn't matter what you believe" (talking about practical application of faith vs mere intellectual acceptance) are very attractive to people who want to live the way they want to live. Of course there would be no conflict between such beliefs and what what non-believers by and large believe. But Christ did conflict with what many people believed - He didn't avoid the conflict, or teach that the ruling principle was to avoid conflict - on the contrary, He told His disciples to prepare for conflict. And they were all martyred for conflicting, as was Christ Himself.

In short, it is extremely dangerous to tell people that it doesn't matter what they (choose to) believe - which is effectively what saying all can be saved regardless of faith adds up to. Lewis described it as "damned nonsense" - the kind of nonsense that damns.

iQuestor wrote:
The thing is, it was possible for Adam and Eve to sin because God made them that way. We aren't perfect -- but its because how we were made. If we were made perfect, we'd be perfect. But, because we are human, sooner or later, somebody was going to eat from that tree.

Here you're imposing the Fallen human condition on unFallen humans. Free will means the will to always choose to reject a temptation as well as succumb to it. If you periodically walk by a fire alarm switch, is it inevitable that sooner or later you will pull it?

I hope no finds this offensive, but, I always have to roll my eyes at people who believe "You can't pick and choose what to believe in the bible". Every single religion and denomination of those religions picks and chooses what to believe, it's just that most don't realize, because it their religion or denomination who is doing that picking and choosing. It is impossible to believe everything in the bible, because there are so many diametrically opposed statements. In Genesis it tells you man came first in one passage, and the beasts or birds came first in another passage. Two different passages tell you different father of Christ (or Joseph?). And many other examples where in one place in the bible it tells you one thing, and then in another place it tells you the exact opposite, and this is far more than New Testament over-riding what it disagrees with Old Testament on.

rusmeister wrote:

iQuestor wrote:
The thing is, it was possible for Adam and Eve to sin because God made them that way. We aren't perfect -- but its because how we were made. If we were made perfect, we'd be perfect. But, because we are human, sooner or later, somebody was going to eat from that tree.

Here you're imposing the Fallen human condition on unFallen humans. Free will means the will to always choose to reject a temptation as well as succumb to it. If you periodically walk by a fire alarm switch, is it inevitable that sooner or later you will pull it?

Yes, but God gave us free will, then punishes us with eternal burning death if we exercise it! Why would He make Man a curious animal, then throw a whole tree in front of us and tell us we have to stay away from it? Isnt that a recipe for dissapointment? That seems sadistic.

Why would he even make the Tree of Life anyway? If he is God, why not put it out of reach, or not create it entirely?

I hope no finds this offensive, but, I always have to roll my eyes at people who believe "You can't pick and choose what to believe in the bible". Every single religion and denomination of those religions picks and chooses what to believe, it's just that most don't realize, because it their religion or denomination who is doing that picking and choosing. It is impossible to believe everything in the bible, because there are so many diametrically opposed statements. In Genesis it tells you man came first in one passage, and the beasts or birds came first in another passage. Two different passages tell you different father of Christ (or Joseph?). And many other examples where in one place in the bible it tells you one thing, and then in another place it tells you the exact opposite, and this is far more than New Testament over-riding what it disagrees with Old Testament on.

Here, here! The Bible was written by humans, so it must be imperfect. Thats the explanation I get. Most of it was written well after the events themselves happened, so we rely on generations of oral histories before they put it down on paper. I think some details were lost or got switched around.

I agree with not picking and choosing, and I also agree most, if not all religions do that to support this or that religious dogma. Like you say, how can you not when many things are contradicted in the Bible.

sindatur wrote: It is impossible to believe everything in the bible, because there are so many diametrically opposed statements. In Genesis it tells you man came first in one passage, and the beasts or birds came first in another passage. Two different passages tell you different father of Christ (or Joseph?). And many other examples where in one place in the bible it tells you one thing, and then in another place it tells you the exact opposite, and this is far more than New Testament over-riding what it disagrees with Old Testament on.

Can you direct me to these inconsistancies please. I would be interested in looking at them in more detail.

SoulBiter wrote:

sindatur wrote: It is impossible to believe everything in the bible, because there are so many diametrically opposed statements. In Genesis it tells you man came first in one passage, and the beasts or birds came first in another passage. Two different passages tell you different father of Christ (or Joseph?). And many other examples where in one place in the bible it tells you one thing, and then in another place it tells you the exact opposite, and this is far more than New Testament over-riding what it disagrees with Old Testament on.

Can you direct me to these inconsistancies please. I would be interested in looking at them in more detail.

www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_ ... ncies.html

Rus,

Could you explain to me (and I'm not trying to sound sarcastic here, this is a legitimate question) how it is that you, an imperfect human, can claim that your belief system is "the one"? I see that you quote CS Lewis quite a bit. I've read him as well. He's human too, so quoting another human's opinion on the nature of God isn't really accurate either.

Let's try this.

All the people who lived and died before the coming of Christ. Were any of them saved? Just the Jews? None of them?

All of the people who lived during New Testament times outside of the scope of the Biblical story (there were people living outside of the Middle East). Were any of them saved?

How about now? There are people who call themselves Christian who believe that I'm (as a Catholic) not saved. Are they right? If not, why?

Give or take, there are two billion people on the planet who identify themselves as Christian. Assuming that all of those two billion conform to whatever your belief system is, does that mean that the other four billion people are S.O.L.?

If all of those things are the case, how do you (not CS Lewis or any other author) reconcile that with a loving God who created us in His image?

iQuestor wrote:Like you say, how can you not when many things are contradicted in the Bible.

I've heard a lot of answers to that question over the years.
"The Lord works in mysterious"....hahahaha....couldn't finish without laughing......
How about this: "The finite mind can never hope to understand the infinite."
Or "the Old Testament is just a parable".

But my favorite and the most ludicrous explanation for all the contradictions in the Bible has to be......"God messed the Bible up on purpose to test our faith."

I looked at the website and its 'inconsistancies'. On a cursory look I didnt find inconsistancies. What I found was someone really reaching to find something to show inconsistancy. Here is an example:

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.

PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

When God asks Cain where his brother is, it wasnt because he didnt know. He knew Able was dead. Its kind of like asking your kid a question you already know the answer to so you can see what they will say.

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

Obviously God was pleased with his creation but by the time Chapter 6 came along God was displeased with how his creations were sinning.

SoulBiter wrote:I looked at the website and its 'inconsistancies'. On a cursory look I didnt find inconsistancies. What I found was someone really reaching to find something to show inconsistancy. Here is an example:

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.

PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

When God asks Cain where his brother is, it wasnt because he didnt know. He knew Able was dead. Its kind of like asking your kid a question you already know the answer to so you can see what they will say.

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.

Obviously God was pleased with his creation but by the time Chapter 6 came along God was displeased with how his creations were sinning.

Sure, some of them are a stretch, but, you can't deny these (for example) are contradictory, they are exact opposites of each other

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

And that's just the first few.

High Lord Tolkien wrote:But my favorite and the most ludicrous explanation for all the contradictions in the Bible has to be......"God messed the Bible up on purpose to test our faith."

That's excellent, HLT! I've never heard that one before!

I have to say that this discussion about contradictions in the Bible has reminded me of one of the funniest lines in the GI:

SRD wrote:Internal consistency's a bitch.

High Lord Tolkien wrote: But my favorite and the most ludicrous explanation for all the contradictions in the Bible has to be......"God messed the Bible up on purpose to test our faith."

Oh my God (so to speak)! Someone actually said that? I mean, an actual Christian? And was serious?
That's even worse than "Fossils were planted by the Devil." [in a 300 level Philosophy of Religion class]

Vraith wrote:

High Lord Tolkien wrote: But my favorite and the most ludicrous explanation for all the contradictions in the Bible has to be......"God messed the Bible up on purpose to test our faith."

Oh my God (so to speak)! Someone actually said that? I mean, an actual Christian? And was serious?
That's even worse than "Fossils were planted by the Devil." [in a 300 level Philosophy of Religion class]

I have heard the evidence for man's evolution from the Apes, as well as fossils being planted were all either Satan's doing, evil scientists claiming to make discoveries, or a Test of our faith from God.