TheFallen wrote:peter wrote:That's fair comment WOTWE, but that last post of mine was a sort of afterthought refering more to the one above where I requested Horrim Carabal to 'grade' the first two series as he had the third. Perhaps not a fair thing to do - but still approaching the essence of the point I am after. I am of the opinion that the Last Chrons is a much harder literary trick to pull of than the first two, more plot driven narratives
I'm in full agreement with that - the LCs are in my judgement clearly more introspective, internalised and "psychodramatic" than Chrons 1 and 2.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:That requires a judgment based on memory, and memories are tainted by nostalgic feelings. The enjoyment of the present Chrons may also be tainted by nostalgia over the past Chrons. Furthermore, I trust that, for most of us, we are much older than when we first read the Chrons and our tastes have changed. I know mine have.
Yes but you're blithely dismissing the point made by several that they've gone back to re-read Chrons 1 and 2 several times over the last 20 years and have found themselves appreciating those works <i>MORE</i> now that they're reading them from a more mature reader viewpoint. I cannot see how your claim that nostalgia colours people's judgement applies in these cases... it borders on the patronising.
I am often accused here of addressing people instead of issues. The only understanding response I have gotten was from someone who stated that all our experiences are subjectively colored and cannot be escaped from. But I never stated otherwise. Only he went too far and claimed that there is very little objectivity in experience. I just think there is more to it than that.
There have been some who stated that upon re-reading the previous Chrons they have even improved in their eyes. Whatever the reasons for this, they are subjective ones, as with nostalgia, because nothing about the books has changed objectively.
It would be impossible to account for all the subjective factors that color people's experiences. I only named one of many. And even if nostalgia was not a factor, at least it lies within the realm of subjective feeling or bias, and this is what I was addressing (not people or whatever, but the concepts that produce subjective feeling).
Someone here suggested that the only thing objective about a novel is the word-count. Yet someone else mentioned "the essence of story-telling" as if, perhaps, there was some objective importance to this too. I'm certain that literary matters contain far more objectivity than some would like to let on. Reduction to a single principle is a dangerous game because it is rarely correct and leads to prejudicial judgment.
However, I am not asking for more objectivity, only appreciation. I believe Donaldson fans are capable of a level of appreciation that goes beyond merely liking/disliking the Last Chrons. I happen to dislike SHE, but I also want to know, "What the F was that scene all about anyway, and where the H is Donaldson going with SHE?" Perhaps I am just prejudiced against the character, I should just wait and see what happens. After all, I did have the expectation of something completely different from what I happened to read.
TheFallen wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
As for the Last Chrons, my desire is that anybody's tastes in books, including my own, should have grown, and not just changed, along with Donaldson's writing ability. Otherwise, we will be, in the literary sense, much like the proverbial 40-year-old virgin still living in his parents' basement.
Changed, you'd expect so. Grown? You'd only hope so. It's surely possible for any writer's talents to peak and therefore also diminish over time - not that I am saying that this has necessarily happened to SRD.
I'm no judge of Donaldson's abilities, and I'm not a writer by trade, but I would guess that his level of visionary writing has decreased, while his skill at writing has greatly improved. Even the Gap, 20 years ago, contained better writing than the 2nd Chrons, and the plot was more skillfully woven.
As far as I was concerned at the time of my first reading of the 2nd Chrons, it was disappointing to see Covenant knocked out all the time in TOT, and then the ending of TOT sucked. But WGW made up for that in the end, although the
arguleh bored me. But in retrospect, I can laugh at and appreciate the little joke Donaldson played on us readers. Ending TOT on a down note turned out to be not the trope one would expect from book two of a trilogy. Rather, they had the Staff all along.
Ever since I returned to this forum last year, months before AATE's publication, I have been telling everybody here that it will be another TOT one way or another. Maybe not in its specifics (for ex., the water has come to the quest rather than the quest taking to water). But it is, for most people, the downer book of the tetralogy, and I predict it will be followed by
one hell of a ride! And that everything going before, even the most negative aspects of AATE, are only there to make the rest possible. One must traverse the slow upgrade on Donaldson's roller-coaster ride before the scary downhill fun begins.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Saying something is "my opinion" is far preferable to being absolute about art; on the other hand, it can also serve as an excuse to weasel out of having one's own opinions critiqued. Even a judge's opinion on a case may be readjudicated in another venue.
TheFallen wrote:Hmmm. I'm not sure anyone's opinions can validly be critiqued - perhaps better to say that the evidence which someone presents to support their opinions can be reviewed and differently interpreted, or indeed alternate evidence cam be cited to support a different interpretation. I still think it's near on impossible to avoid the subjective when evaluating art.
Agreed on the first, but as for the last, I don't think any art critic has tried to avoid the subjective, and I haven't called for it. But any art critic will tell you that appreciation is key to understanding. Consider how much surreal art appears to be junk, like a child's finger-painting, at first glance. In some cases a skillful appreciation is required to see the difference.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:You say that the Last Chrons is harder for Donaldson to pull off, and indeed he has admitted as much himself. However, the reader must also rise to the challenge... And perhaps in some cases it is the reader who has failed Donaldson, and not Donaldson who has failed the reader.
TheFallen wrote:Again hmmm. It's undoubtedly valid to state that anyone idiotic enough to judge the LCs as some sort of hack 'n' slay sword & sorcery pulp fiction is unutterably missing the point and "failing" the author - a book shouldn't be judged *just* against the reader's expectation. However, the reverse is equally true - I don't think a book should be judged *just* against the author's objectives. What happens if the author's objectives are ludicrously unattainable? Or completely unsuited to the author's skill-sets? Just because someone's a brilliant poet wouldn't automatically make them a great novelist. Similarly, just because SRD achieved so well in Chrons 1 and 2 - which as Peter states in his post were more plot-driven - doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a fantastic psychodrama writer. Judgement therefore surely has to be a compromise. To amend my Hitler example used in a previous post, I'm really not at all fond of Mein Kampf, but I'm sure it sets out exactly to do and say what young Adolf intended. This does NOT mean I should either admire it or agree with it.
I think AATE is just setting the stage for TLD. Somewhat quickly and ham-handedly perhaps, yet I shudder at the thought of having to add a fifth novel to the mix. But the long ride uphill toward TLD has succeeded, I would think, however it was accomplished. Now it's all downhill fun from here.
Some of what you write above is lost on me - Donaldson is a superlative psychodrama writer, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. I just happen to think that Morn Hyland was a better foil than Linden Avery ever could be. But I also think Linden is a stronger and more complex character than Morn, and that Linden was designed to accomplish much more for the plot than the weak but manipulative Morn.
I don't know why it's the case that the longer the thread the greater the certainty that someone will eventually mention Hitler. However, I'll address what I think is your point and state that Mein Kampf can still be
appreciated historically, whether one agrees with it or even likes it. One could like it as a historical document of the mind of a mad-man. The complete
illogic of the man is thoroughly astounding, and yet he addressed his topic in rational-sounding terms, completely in contrast to the way he addressed a live audience. There was no podium-pounding rhetoric in Kampf, only calm, cool, reasoning, albeit exceedingly wrong-headed.
TheFallen wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If he manages to convince enough readers, then he will put bread on the table, and in the long run that's what it's all about. Objectively speaking, in terms of sales and critical reviews, Donaldson has not failed his task with the Last Chrons.
I don't think that the critical reviews here are unfailingly glowing - and I'm not buying your financial earnings criterion as an objective yardstick at all.
In this case, I was only referencing something Donaldson wrote on the GI about putting bread on the table. However, nowadays, with the economy and the slump of book sales in general, putting bread on the table is about the most the average author can hope to expect.
TheFallen wrote:In fact, this latter you've already shot down yourself with your claim of nostalgia - to use another comparative, Elvis could still pack out concert halls way WAY beyond the twilight of his career, when he was 50 pounds overweight and half spaced out on drugs. Selling out a venue or making copious amounts of royalties on a newly released novel means next to nothing, apart from the fact that there's money to be made.
Donaldson is not the King of Rock and Roll to begin with, and there was no slump in concert ticket sales as there is in the book trade.
TheFallen wrote:TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:How can we say that Donaldson failed his task before he has even finished it?
That is a very apposite point - we ought not to pass comment until we've reached the destination. I think it is however justified to opine that we may not be enjoying the journey so much, if we feel that way.
Fine, I appreciate the roller coaster ride for what it is, a series of gentle ups, extreme downs, and curves often not very gentle.