Official Discussion Forum for the works of Stephen R. Donaldson
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In a case like this of course opinions are just that and have nothing to do with 'right or wrong'.Horrim Carabal wrote:In the end, though, there's no trying to convince someone that their opinions are wrong.
That's what I meant.peter wrote:In a case like this of course opinions are just that and have nothing to do with 'right or wrong'.Horrim Carabal wrote:In the end, though, there's no trying to convince someone that their opinions are wrong.
What is your rating for AATE, 5 out of 5?Horrim Carabal wrote:That's what I meant.peter wrote:In a case like this of course opinions are just that and have nothing to do with 'right or wrong'.Horrim Carabal wrote:In the end, though, there's no trying to convince someone that their opinions are wrong.
If someone doesn't like AATE, fine. I can't and won't convince them otherwise.
I loved it.
More importantly, there is no objective way to criticize your review.Endymion9 wrote:I'm trying to learn in any review I write, to say things like, I liked this because or didn't like it because. Or I liked this better than that. And use less speech like this wasn't as good as that, or was better. Keep it more subjective since there is no objective way to review a book other than word count.
Same here! I liked this book because it was f-ing amazing!Endymion9 wrote:I'm trying to learn in any review I write, to say things like, I liked this because or didn't like it because. Or I liked this better than that. And use less speech like this wasn't as good as that, or was better. Keep it more subjective since there is no objective way to review a book other than word count.
A solid 4. I give RotE a 3.5 and FR a 4.5.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: What is your rating for AATE, 5 out of 5?
I don't think that's what you meant. Opinions and "liking/disliking" something are two different things. It is not your opinion that you liked a book, it is a fact that you liked it.Horrim Carabal wrote:That's what I meant.peter wrote:In a case like this of course opinions are just that and have nothing to do with 'right or wrong'.Horrim Carabal wrote:In the end, though, there's no trying to convince someone that their opinions are wrong.
...
I loved it.
That requires a judgment based on memory, and memories are tainted by nostalgic feelings. The enjoyment of the present Chrons may also be tainted by nostalgia over the past Chrons. Furthermore, I trust that, for most of us, we are much older than when we first read the Chrons and our tastes have changed. I know mine have.peter wrote:That's fair comment WOTWE, but that last post of mine was a sort of afterthought refering more to the one above where I requested Horrim Carabal to 'grade' the first two series as he had the third. Perhaps not a fair thing to do - but still approaching the essence of the point I am after. I am of the opinion that the Last Chrons is a much harder literary trick to pull of than the first two, more plot driven narratives - and I am also of the opinion that Donaldson has failed pretty badly. My opinion, neither right or wrong, just my opinion. Now - forget that. There are many here for whom the reading of the Last Chrons has clearly been a rich and rewarding experience and I envy them greatly. What I am very interested to know from these lucky individuals is whether they can tell me, hand on heart, that the Last Chrons are giving them as much, if not more pleasure to read as the first and second Chrons gave them (either at the time or in re-reading them now). I can read the Last Chrons because they are TC storys - I have that pre-formed interest in all things Land based. I want to know what is going to happen to the Land I love, but I could never say in a million years that these last three books are (in my opinion again) a patch on the 6 that preceed them. This may be unfair to Donaldson - as I say, what he is trying to do this time is a MUCH harder thing to pull of - but nevertheless for me it is the case.
Okay. Note that I have only read the Last Chronicles a few times (and in the case of AATE, once)...so the reviews below represent what I thought of the first and second chrons after a similarly few readings.peter wrote:Will you then give us your ratings (overall) fot the 1st and 2nd Chrons using your above solid rating as the yardstick to measure them by.
Touche.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:It is not your opinion that you liked a book, it is a fact that you liked it.
Here is where the fun begins. Because now someone, such as yours truly, may come along and ask: how can you give TIW 4.5 out of 5 while at the same time not saying anything negative about it?Horrim Carabal wrote:Okay.peter wrote:Will you then give us your ratings (overall) fot the 1st and 2nd Chrons using your above solid rating as the yardstick to measure them by.
LFB gets a 5/5. Instantly hooked me and opened my 13-year old eyes to the incredible possibilities of not only fantasy but fiction in general. Before reading LFB I had read Tolkien, Eddings, and some awful D&D novels books by unknown authors. I was floored.
TIW...4.5/5. I can't really say anything negative about it. Sweeping and grand in scale. And the triumph of Hile Troy (I consider it a triumph) at the Deep...contrasted with the awful failure of Elena...
Is a 4.75 allowed in this system? Why not 3.14159265...? I just don't see, relatively speaking, how you grade this between TIW and LFB.Horrim Carabal wrote:PTP...5/5. Majestic, moving, there aren't enough words. SRD finishes the First Chronicles perfectly.
TWL...5/5. Probably the best TC book ever. I was so emotionally invested in the series that I felt actual sadness and anger at what had been done to the Land. And I hated Lord Foul. How I hated him!
TOT...4.5/5. Shocking failure of the heroes on the Isle. I was stunned once more. The heroes are supposed to *win*, dammit!!
WGW...4.75/5. The first half of the book is probably my least favorite 1/2 TC book (slow paced). But the second half redeems it with an amazing finish. Unlike other posters, though, it never seemed to me to be THE END of the Chronicles. Why? Foul's still there. IMO there can't be an end until there is an end to Foul.
Horrim Carabal wrote:I know these are high grades, but these books are my favorite of all time. I don't toss around 5/5s at all.
In fact, the only other fantasy I can think of that I'd give 5/5 to are both books of the Sarantine Mosaic by Kay. Sailing to Sarantium...5/5. Lord of Emperors...5/5. Anyone who hasn't read this duology should pick it up immediately.
Horrim Carabal wrote:Touche.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:It is not your opinion that you liked a book, it is a fact that you liked it.
It's a definite possibility for me, though I'll have to see Last Dark first to be sure. Unless that book is a total let down [which I don't expect to happen], the Last will have a slight edge over the 2nd, slight shortfall of the 1st...but that's a preliminary guestimate.peter wrote:What I am very interested to know from these lucky individuals is whether they can tell me, hand on heart, that the Last Chrons are giving them as much, if not more pleasure to read as the first and second Chrons gave them (either at the time or in re-reading them now).
I'm in full agreement with that - the LCs are in my judgement clearly more introspective, internalised and "psychodramatic" than Chrons 1 and 2.peter wrote:That's fair comment WOTWE, but that last post of mine was a sort of afterthought refering more to the one above where I requested Horrim Carabal to 'grade' the first two series as he had the third. Perhaps not a fair thing to do - but still approaching the essence of the point I am after. I am of the opinion that the Last Chrons is a much harder literary trick to pull of than the first two, more plot driven narratives
Yes but you're blithely dismissing the point made by several that they've gone back to re-read Chrons 1 and 2 several times over the last 20 years and have found themselves appreciating those works <i>MORE</i> now that they're reading them from a more mature reader viewpoint. I cannot see how your claim that nostalgia colours people's judgement applies in these cases... it borders on the patronising.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:That requires a judgment based on memory, and memories are tainted by nostalgic feelings. The enjoyment of the present Chrons may also be tainted by nostalgia over the past Chrons. Furthermore, I trust that, for most of us, we are much older than when we first read the Chrons and our tastes have changed. I know mine have.
Changed, you'd expect so. Grown? You'd only hope so. It's surely possible for any writer's talents to peak and therefore also diminish over time - not that I am saying that this has necessarily happened to SRD.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: As for the Last Chrons, my desire is that anybody's tastes in books, including my own, should have grown, and not just changed, along with Donaldson's writing ability. Otherwise, we will be, in the literary sense, much like the proverbial 40-year-old virgin still living in his parents' basement.
Hmmm. I'm not sure anyone's opinions can validly be critiqued - perhaps better to say that the evidence which someone presents to support their opinions can be reviewed and differently interpreted, or indeed alternate evidence cam be cited to support a different interpretation. I still think it's near on impossible to avoid the subjective when evaluating art.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Saying something is "my opinion" is far preferable to being absolute about art; on the other hand, it can also serve as an excuse to weasel out of having one's own opinions critiqued. Even a judge's opinion on a case may be readjudicated in another venue.
Again hmmm. It's undoubtedly valid to state that anyone idiotic enough to judge the LCs as some sort of hack 'n' slay sword & sorcery pulp fiction is unutterably missing the point and "failing" the author - a book shouldn't be judged *just* against the reader's expectation. However, the reverse is equally true - I don't think a book should be judged *just* against the author's objectives. What happens if the author's objectives are ludicrously unattainable? Or completely unsuited to the author's skill-sets? Just because someone's a brilliant poet wouldn't automatically make them a great novelist. Similarly, just because SRD achieved so well in Chrons 1 and 2 - which as Peter states in his post were more plot-driven - doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a fantastic psychodrama writer. Judgement therefore surely has to be a compromise. To amend my Hitler example used in a previous post, I'm really not at all fond of Mein Kampf, but I'm sure it sets out exactly to do and say what young Adolf intended. This does NOT mean I should either admire it or agree with it.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:You say that the Last Chrons is harder for Donaldson to pull off, and indeed he has admitted as much himself. However, the reader must also rise to the challenge... And perhaps in some cases it is the reader who has failed Donaldson, and not Donaldson who has failed the reader.
I don't think that the critical reviews here are unfailingly glowing - and I'm not buying your financial earnings criterion as an objective yardstick at all. In fact, this latter you've already shot down yourself with your claim of nostalgia - to use another comparative, Elvis could still pack out concert halls way WAY beyond the twilight of his career, when he was 50 pounds overweight and half spaced out on drugs. Selling out a venue or making copious amounts of royalties on a newly released novel means next to nothing, apart from the fact that there's money to be made.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If he manages to convince enough readers, then he will put bread on the table, and in the long run that's what it's all about. Objectively speaking, in terms of sales and critical reviews, Donaldson has not failed his task with the Last Chrons.
That is a very apposite point - we ought not to pass comment until we've reached the destination. I think it is however justified to opine that we may not be enjoying the journey so much, if we feel that way.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:How can we say that Donaldson failed his task before he has even finished it?
I am often accused here of addressing people instead of issues. The only understanding response I have gotten was from someone who stated that all our experiences are subjectively colored and cannot be escaped from. But I never stated otherwise. Only he went too far and claimed that there is very little objectivity in experience. I just think there is more to it than that.TheFallen wrote:I'm in full agreement with that - the LCs are in my judgement clearly more introspective, internalised and "psychodramatic" than Chrons 1 and 2.peter wrote:That's fair comment WOTWE, but that last post of mine was a sort of afterthought refering more to the one above where I requested Horrim Carabal to 'grade' the first two series as he had the third. Perhaps not a fair thing to do - but still approaching the essence of the point I am after. I am of the opinion that the Last Chrons is a much harder literary trick to pull of than the first two, more plot driven narratives
Yes but you're blithely dismissing the point made by several that they've gone back to re-read Chrons 1 and 2 several times over the last 20 years and have found themselves appreciating those works <i>MORE</i> now that they're reading them from a more mature reader viewpoint. I cannot see how your claim that nostalgia colours people's judgement applies in these cases... it borders on the patronising.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:That requires a judgment based on memory, and memories are tainted by nostalgic feelings. The enjoyment of the present Chrons may also be tainted by nostalgia over the past Chrons. Furthermore, I trust that, for most of us, we are much older than when we first read the Chrons and our tastes have changed. I know mine have.
I'm no judge of Donaldson's abilities, and I'm not a writer by trade, but I would guess that his level of visionary writing has decreased, while his skill at writing has greatly improved. Even the Gap, 20 years ago, contained better writing than the 2nd Chrons, and the plot was more skillfully woven.TheFallen wrote:Changed, you'd expect so. Grown? You'd only hope so. It's surely possible for any writer's talents to peak and therefore also diminish over time - not that I am saying that this has necessarily happened to SRD.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: As for the Last Chrons, my desire is that anybody's tastes in books, including my own, should have grown, and not just changed, along with Donaldson's writing ability. Otherwise, we will be, in the literary sense, much like the proverbial 40-year-old virgin still living in his parents' basement.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Saying something is "my opinion" is far preferable to being absolute about art; on the other hand, it can also serve as an excuse to weasel out of having one's own opinions critiqued. Even a judge's opinion on a case may be readjudicated in another venue.
Agreed on the first, but as for the last, I don't think any art critic has tried to avoid the subjective, and I haven't called for it. But any art critic will tell you that appreciation is key to understanding. Consider how much surreal art appears to be junk, like a child's finger-painting, at first glance. In some cases a skillful appreciation is required to see the difference.TheFallen wrote:Hmmm. I'm not sure anyone's opinions can validly be critiqued - perhaps better to say that the evidence which someone presents to support their opinions can be reviewed and differently interpreted, or indeed alternate evidence cam be cited to support a different interpretation. I still think it's near on impossible to avoid the subjective when evaluating art.
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:You say that the Last Chrons is harder for Donaldson to pull off, and indeed he has admitted as much himself. However, the reader must also rise to the challenge... And perhaps in some cases it is the reader who has failed Donaldson, and not Donaldson who has failed the reader.
I think AATE is just setting the stage for TLD. Somewhat quickly and ham-handedly perhaps, yet I shudder at the thought of having to add a fifth novel to the mix. But the long ride uphill toward TLD has succeeded, I would think, however it was accomplished. Now it's all downhill fun from here.TheFallen wrote:Again hmmm. It's undoubtedly valid to state that anyone idiotic enough to judge the LCs as some sort of hack 'n' slay sword & sorcery pulp fiction is unutterably missing the point and "failing" the author - a book shouldn't be judged *just* against the reader's expectation. However, the reverse is equally true - I don't think a book should be judged *just* against the author's objectives. What happens if the author's objectives are ludicrously unattainable? Or completely unsuited to the author's skill-sets? Just because someone's a brilliant poet wouldn't automatically make them a great novelist. Similarly, just because SRD achieved so well in Chrons 1 and 2 - which as Peter states in his post were more plot-driven - doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a fantastic psychodrama writer. Judgement therefore surely has to be a compromise. To amend my Hitler example used in a previous post, I'm really not at all fond of Mein Kampf, but I'm sure it sets out exactly to do and say what young Adolf intended. This does NOT mean I should either admire it or agree with it.
In this case, I was only referencing something Donaldson wrote on the GI about putting bread on the table. However, nowadays, with the economy and the slump of book sales in general, putting bread on the table is about the most the average author can hope to expect.TheFallen wrote:I don't think that the critical reviews here are unfailingly glowing - and I'm not buying your financial earnings criterion as an objective yardstick at all.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If he manages to convince enough readers, then he will put bread on the table, and in the long run that's what it's all about. Objectively speaking, in terms of sales and critical reviews, Donaldson has not failed his task with the Last Chrons.
Donaldson is not the King of Rock and Roll to begin with, and there was no slump in concert ticket sales as there is in the book trade.TheFallen wrote:In fact, this latter you've already shot down yourself with your claim of nostalgia - to use another comparative, Elvis could still pack out concert halls way WAY beyond the twilight of his career, when he was 50 pounds overweight and half spaced out on drugs. Selling out a venue or making copious amounts of royalties on a newly released novel means next to nothing, apart from the fact that there's money to be made.
Fine, I appreciate the roller coaster ride for what it is, a series of gentle ups, extreme downs, and curves often not very gentle.TheFallen wrote:That is a very apposite point - we ought not to pass comment until we've reached the destination. I think it is however justified to opine that we may not be enjoying the journey so much, if we feel that way.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:How can we say that Donaldson failed his task before he has even finished it?
That was me, as it happens - I think we'll have to agree to differ on "too far"TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I am often accused here of addressing people instead of issues. The only understanding response I have gotten was from someone who stated that all our experiences are subjectively colored and cannot be escaped from. But I never stated otherwise. Only he went too far and claimed that there is very little objectivity in experience. I just think there is more to it than that.
Okay... and in all sincerity, I have to ask... appreciation of what? I share your belief in Donaldson fans being able to see beyond the superficial and not to just react in thoughtless knee-jerk fashion... but what are you seeing in the Last Chrons and AATE in particular that you're so convinced roughly 50% of others are blind to?TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:However, I am not asking for more objectivity, only appreciation. I believe Donaldson fans are capable of a level of appreciation that goes beyond merely liking/disliking the Last Chrons.
Okay, but in some other cases, it's just junkTheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Consider how much surreal art appears to be junk, like a child's finger-painting, at first glance. In some cases a skillful appreciation is required to see the difference.
I'm not sure that it's inevitable to have a weak mid-section in any series. However, in general I really hope you're right and that's the difference between your stance and mine. You have a whole heap of what I'd call not much more than faith that it's all going to be fabulous and turn out fine - I'm sure you've got your evidence for believing this that looks adequately weighty to you. Me, I'm ambivalent... the evidence ain't looking so clever. I'm uneasy with many of the elements within both AATE and the Last Chrons as a whole <u>so far</u>. As I said, I'm not as captivated by the journey, but I still fervently hope the destination's worth the wait.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Ever since I returned to this forum last year, months before AATE's publication, I have been telling everybody here that it will be another TOT one way or another. It is, for most people, the downer book of the tetralogy, and I predict it will be followed by one hell of a ride! And that everything going before, even the most negative aspects of AATE, are only there to make the rest possible. One must traverse the slow upgrade on Donaldson's roller-coaster ride before the scary downhill fun begins. I think AATE is just setting the stage for TLD. Somewhat quickly and ham-handedly perhaps, yet I shudder at the thought of having to add a fifth novel to the mix. But the long ride uphill toward TLD has succeeded, I would think, however it was accomplished. Now it's all downhill fun from here.
But it wasn't a value-judgment. Your statement was intended to be matter-of-fact. Why shouldn't we both agree on it?TheFallen wrote:That was me, as it happens - I think we'll have to agree to differ on "too far"TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:I am often accused here of addressing people instead of issues. The only understanding response I have gotten was from someone who stated that all our experiences are subjectively colored and cannot be escaped from. But I never stated otherwise. Only he went too far and claimed that there is very little objectivity in experience. I just think there is more to it than that.
I haven't asked anybody a personal question such as "what do you appreciate about AATE or the Last Chrons?" I have only thrown some examples of appreciation out there. If they fall to the ground, so be it. But I haven't accused anybody of being blind to anything, have I? This is becoming personal toward me once again.TheFallen wrote:Okay... and in all sincerity, I have to ask... appreciation of what? I share your belief in Donaldson fans being able to see beyond the superficial and not to just react in thoughtless knee-jerk fashion... but what are you seeing in the Last Chrons and AATE in particular that you're so convinced roughly 50% of others are blind to?TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:However, I am not asking for more objectivity, only appreciation. I believe Donaldson fans are capable of a level of appreciation that goes beyond merely liking/disliking the Last Chrons.
One person's junk is another's treasure. I am not about to turn this into an art class, but consider the following piece of junk:TheFallen wrote:Okay, but in some other cases, it's just junkTheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:Consider how much surreal art appears to be junk, like a child's finger-painting, at first glance. In some cases a skillful appreciation is required to see the difference.
Is the Chrons a series? Anyway, I've only mentioned the trope of the downer second book, or even second movement of a symphony, followed by the up-swing. Particular tropes are not inevitable by any means. But going by everything else I've read of Donaldson's, I predict we are in for a hell of a ride, and particularly, I believe, because he intends it to go out with a bang.TheFallen wrote:I'm not sure that it's inevitable to have a weak mid-section in any series. However, in general I really hope you're right and that's the difference between your stance and mine. You have a whole heap of what I'd call not much more than faith that it's all going to be fabulous and turn out fine - I'm sure you've got your evidence for believing this that looks adequately weighty to you. Me, I'm ambivalent... the evidence ain't looking so clever. I'm uneasy with many of the elements within both AATE and the Last Chrons as a whole <u>so far</u>. As I said, I'm not as captivated by the journey, but I still fervently hope the destination's worth the wait.TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: Ever since I returned to this forum last year, months before AATE's publication, I have been telling everybody here that it will be another TOT one way or another. It is, for most people, the downer book of the tetralogy, and I predict it will be followed by one hell of a ride! And that everything going before, even the most negative aspects of AATE, are only there to make the rest possible. One must traverse the slow upgrade on Donaldson's roller-coaster ride before the scary downhill fun begins. I think AATE is just setting the stage for TLD. Somewhat quickly and ham-handedly perhaps, yet I shudder at the thought of having to add a fifth novel to the mix. But the long ride uphill toward TLD has succeeded, I would think, however it was accomplished. Now it's all downhill fun from here.
I will say that I am, as things stand right now, deriving more enjoyment from these Last Chronicles then the previous two. Why is this? The first two are still essentially scripture, but for me there's so much more to the Last Chronicles experience then with the first couple of chronicles. I've started analyzing the first two because of the Last and have derived more value as a result. I have found Kevin's Watch because I wanted to talk about the Last Chronicles and have gained several insights as a result. The Last Chronicles and all its themes and so forth has lead to dialogues with Watchers and Donaldson that have increased my perception of the world. The Last Chronicles has made me a better person, a more cultured person, a person who can enjoy many different things that he didn't beforehand.peter wrote:What I suppose I am asking is 'Is there anyone - anyone - who will come out and say that, when all is said and done, they are deriving more enjoyment (and this, after all, is what it is all about) from the third series than they did from the first or second. This has to be my yardstick - what other have I?