Wait a moment... so abortion really does = murder....

[lurch]

...yes, for all you know she could be laying in a pool of blood brought on from that coathanger abortion job she got in the back alley...See, two can play this ridiculous game of hysteria and extremism. ...MEl

[dennisrwood]

did she fail sex ed in high school? was she unaware
that sex may lead to pregnancy? women do have medical problems brought on after abortion. do you agree with laws that disallow a school nurse to give your child an aspirin, but ok's a dangerous medical invasive procedure like abortionwithout your knowledge? or does "the right to choose" overtake common sense?

and do you think that just maybe, the numbers of abortions have grown with "the right to choose"???

[Avatar]

...Thus I find it immoral for the Government to force the women to sacrifice themselves for the unborn.

Well said.

I find the concept of using abortion as a birth control method disgusting. Still, I believe that the right to choose is more important than the risk of mass abortions.

I agree. The right to choose, to determine for yourself what happens to your body and your life is, by far, the "greater good". Yes, there may well be some negative consequences, but they are a side-effect of freedom, if you will.

To deny freedom because of the chance that some people will abuse it is to do everybody else a disservice.

...Population growth will demand severe population controls in a relatively short number of years, or evolution will see to it, that our population is decreased, one way or another

Unfortunately I have to agree, adding that I don't believe in possible space colonisation - at this rate we will more likely deplet the vital resources before sufficient technology is developed. Perhaps it's better, one wasted planet is more than enough..

I agree here too. Possible stop-gaps are wide-spread starvation, a truly global pandemic of an easily communicable and quickly fatal disease/virus/whatever, another global war and colonising the ocean-floor.

Dennis-- I'm sure that the number of abortions have grown with "the right to choose", but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the right in the first place. As I said, having that right is more important than the fact that some people will abuse it.

--Avatar

[Cail]

A woman's right to choose is exercised when she decides to have sex. Any consequences thereof were a known prior to the choice to have sex. Any abortion, other than in the very rare cases of rape, is birth control, and in my opinion utterly reprehensible.

[Avatar]

And what about cases where birth-control, none of which is 100% effective, fails? The person involved was choosing a responsible action, the consequence was unintended.

Of course, the culture of celibacy that you seem to be espousing would stop all that. But that is even less likely to happen.

If we based legislation on how people should behave, there would be no need for laws against murder, because nobody would do it. Instead, we must base it on how people do behave. And people will have sex.

--Avatar

[sindatur]

Regarding the "dramatic" increase in abortions since the "Right to Choose" was made a right, I don't have statistics, but, you also have to consider that population has grown dramatically in those 35+/- years, so naturally if the pool of women grows, the number of abortions will grow. The real question is has the ratio of women to number of abortions grown, or merely the number of abortions since the number of women has grown. Additionally, what demographic has grown in numbers (Girls, women in their late teens to 20s, older women)?

[Cail]

Somewhere earlier in this thread I posted the statistics and my analysis.

womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats ... nstats.htm

www.mccl.org/abortion_statistics.htm

[sindatur]

So nothing at all comparing Pre-Roe v. Wade to today, or showing % of women having abortions growing or decreasing, only numbers of abortions. No help in what I was asking about ratios.

[Cail]

Nag, nag, nag.....How 'bout this?

www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/us1996.htm

[dennisrwood]

Cail: thanks for the numbers.
what i find chilling, is that pro-abortionists would complain that less abortions are being performed. i wonder what a 'good' number would be for them, because a million seems like a large number to me.
is there a tote board and they all cheer when a million is cleared?

[sindatur]

Well, since I got reamed for using the label Anti-choice, I guess I in turn will ream Dennis for the label Pro-Abortionist. People who are Pro-choice, are not in favor of choosing abortion (as the label Pro-Abortionist suggests), they are in favor of having the choice to abort or not.

I would say it take a few years to get stats working properly, and to get a large number of Drs on board for performing abortions, so, to me, those stats shown climbing through the 70s and early 80s, may just be the stats becoming more accurate, or more abortions done legally and safely (But, not nerccessarily more abortions being done). And the numbers have been slowly declining since the mid 80s, so, although I agree that the percentage is nothing to cheer about, I do not believe it proves conclusively that anything has really changed, other than numbers may be more accurate, and for the past 2 decades % has decreased. Of course even 1 abortion is a tragedy, but there are also a great many other tragedies in the world. I am pro-choice, but I, like Pro-Life folks of course would like to see that percentage decrease ever further until zero, as I am sure most Pro-choice people also fell.

[dennisrwood]

well my rough count was 32 million abortions, can any give a better number from Cail's second list. that seems like more pro-abortion than pro-choice.
and what other choice are the abortionists pushing really? the don't seem to want a dialogue. the seem to want my side of the debate shut down.

32 million...i didn't know it was that many.

[Kymbierlee]

And what about cases where birth-control, none of which is 100% effective, fails? The person involved was choosing a responsible action, the consequence was unintended.

Ahhh- good point Avatar. I got pregnant on the pill. Of course, I chose to have my daughter, and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. That being said, however, I remain steadfastly pro-choice, though I am NOT pro-abortion, as many would believe. I don't believe in government regulation of a woman's private medical concerns. That is enough said from me on this subject. The debate is volatile, and again- no one here will change my stance, and nothing I post will change the stance of anyone here who is Pro-life. I now respectfully leave this thread to go disagree on issues that are less sensitive.

[lurch]

..the numbers of abortions that we KNOW ABOUT have possibly grown..which ain't saying much in any comparison to data of old,,because nobody was documenting what was going on the back room of the doc office or the back alley....Second of all..let me get this straight..did I hear,,a version of..the only reason to have sex is to expect to get pregnant...????.........Sex as an expression of pleasure between two people( and yes, they just may be not only in Love with eachother ,but,,possibly married too...to each other on top of that!) isn't part of the approved human experience...? aamm..thats pretty tight stricture there and I think one is cutting off the blood flow to one s brain with that belief...maybe I just mis read..maybe there was extreme irony as well being expressed,,but that doesn't work because all the other post by the same...........anyway......abortion is an unfortunate business but the Supreme Court has approved its availabilty to ALL women of America. Thats another point btw...previous to Roe/Wade..if one was of financial depth, one could easily jump on plane to Europe and get a discreet abortion and be back in America in time for tea...but the women of less financial backing..did not have that choice..it was the back room or back alley treatmenrt or carry to term..Please do not forget that part of the freedom of choice arguement. Point is..even before it was legal..many , many abortions were going down, either in Europe or in the dark rooms of America.......MEL...

[Cail]

And what about cases where birth-control, none of which is 100% effective, fails? The person involved was choosing a responsible action, the consequence was unintended.

Somewhere back in the thread I posted the statistics of birth-control failure. The numbers were so small they were nearly insignificant.

Oh, and Lurch, nice try, but there's no way I'm saying that sex is just for procreation.....I like it too much and I waayyy too good at it...

What I am saying though is that pro-choice means choosing your actions based on the consequences. One sure-fire way not to have a kid is not to have sex. And murdering your child is a crappy form of birth control.

[Avatar]

Hold on here, Maybe I'm reading your responses wrong, but the chart indicates a decrease in the number of abortions. Doesn't this suggest that less people are trying to use it as a form of birth control?

And Dennis, what evidence is there that pro-choice people, in other words the people who are in favour of women being allowed to make their own choice in the matter, would complain that too few abortions are being carried out?

You say it yourself: They are pushing choice. Not one choice over another, simply the right to choose.

No encouragement to have an abortion is (or should be) intended. Certainly nobody here thinks (as far as I can tell) that people should have abortions instead of children, just that they should be allowed to make up their minds for themselves.

Cail-- Are you then suggesting that the only people allowed to have recreational (as opposed to procreational) sex are those ready and willing to have a child? Still seems a little harsh to me.

--Avatar

[dennisrwood]

well said Cail.

Lurch: why don't we just allow folks to shoot one another. as it may be an inconvienence if i run out of cash. so i should shoot you and take yours?
because i have a hard time believing that a majority of that 32+ million weren't for birth control.

[Avatar]

What difference does it make? Nobody is denying that there are people who use abortion as a form of birth control. And nobody is saying that it is a good thing to do.

However, as I said, those figures show a decrease in abortion. Perhaps people are coming to be more responsible about it?

And even if they are not, again, that is not the point. The point is that a Woman's body belongs to nobody but Herself. She may choose what is done to that body, and what is not. Nobody else. Not me, not you, and certainly not the government or the church.

Anything else is simply a form of slavery.

--Avatar

[Cail]

That wasn't the contraception failure chart....here it is...www.sexuality.org/l/sex/contfail.html

[Avatar]

Wasn't talking about contraception failure there. Was talking about abortion decreases.

The chart you provided clearly shows that 200,000 fewer abortions were carried out in 1996 than in 1981.

So less people are having abortions, contrary to previous statements about the number of abortions increasing.

--Avatar