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Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:25 am
by rusmeister
Fist and Faith wrote:
Linna Heartlistener wrote:Anyone wanna hear either:
* my theory of why "fake it till you make it" appears to work as often as it does?
Say, Linna, why do you think "fake it till you make it" appears to work as often as it does?

:mrgreen:

But I have no idea how often it appears to work, and I've never tried it.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:-OR-
* my theory of how "shame becomes a long-term obstacle to learning/growing/changing, even if it seems to produce good short-term results"
I wouldn't have thought shame produces good short-term results. And never heard anyone suggest that it does, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are circumstances under which it does.

Long-term obstacle to learning/growing/changing? Yeah, I have no problem believing that.
It's another topic, which you're free to ignore, or it could be split as a separate topic, but shame can be defended. It has a genuine purpose. Sure, people can be ashamed about the wrong things, and that seems to be the primary concern of people today. But in doing so, they seem to forget that there ARE things that people OUGHT to be ashamed of. Just as hate is not an unqualified vice - we OUGHT to hate terrorism and pedophilia - so with shame. We OUGHT to be ashamed of shoplifting, taking advantage of others, and wrongdoing in general.
To the believer I'll say that shame has a definite place in the Christian faith in general, and that if a person is not ashamed of their sins - the wrongs they do, be it to others or even to their selves - repentance - metanoia - a genuine change of heart - is not really possible.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:43 am
by Loredoctor
Linna Heartlistener wrote:Interesting, will check it out... in a bit.

LM- what's "narrative therapy"?

Also, anyone know much about EMDR?
From Wikipedia:

The term "narrative therapy" has a specific meaning and is not the same as narrative psychology, or any other therapy that uses stories. Narrative therapy refers to the ideas and practices of Michael White, David Epston, and other practitioners who have built upon this work. The narrative therapist focuses upon narrative in the therapy. The narrative therapist is a collaborator with the client in the process of developing richer (or "thicker") narratives. In this process, narrative therapists ask questions to generate experientially vivid descriptions of life events that are not currently included in the plot of the problematic story.

By conceptualizing a non-essentialized identity, narrative practices separate persons from qualities or attributes that are taken-for-granted essentialisms within modernist and structuralist paradigms. This process of externalization[1] allows people to consider their relationships with problems, thus the narrative motto: “The person is not the problem, the problem is the problem.” So-called strengths or positive attributes are also externalized, allowing people to engage in the construction and performance of preferred identities.

Operationally, narrative therapy involves a process of deconstruction and "meaning making" which are achieved through questioning and collaboration with the client. While narrative work is typically located within the field of family therapy, many authors and practitioners report using these ideas and practices in community work,[3] schools [4][5] and higher education [6]

Although narrative therapists may work somewhat differently (for example, Epston uses letters and other documents with his clients, though this particular practice is not essential to narrative therapy), there are several common elements that might lead one to decide that a therapist is working "narratively" with clients.

Narrative therapy topics

Concept

Narrative therapy holds that our identities are shaped by the accounts of our lives found in our stories or narratives. A narrative therapist is interested in helping others fully describe their rich stories and trajectories, modes of living, and possibilities associated with them. At the same time, this therapist is interested in co-investigating a problem's many influences, including on the person himself and on their chief relationships.

By focusing on problems' effects on people's lives rather than on problems as inside or part of people, distance is created. This externalization or objectification of a problem makes it easier to investigate and evaluate the problem's influences.

Another sort of externalization is likewise possible when people reflect upon and connect with their intentions, values, hopes, and commitments. Once values and hopes have been located in specific life events, they help to “re-author” or “re-story” a person's experience and clearly stand as acts of resistance to problems.

The term “narrative” reflects the multi-storied nature of our identities and related meanings. In particular, re-authoring conversations about values and re-membering conversations about key influential people are powerful ways for people to reclaim their lives from problems. In the end, narrative conversations help people clarify for themselves an alternate direction in life to that of the problem, one that comprises a person's values, hopes, and life commitments.

Narrative approaches

Briefly, narrative approaches hold that identity is chiefly shaped by narratives or stories, whether uniquely personal or culturally general. Identity conclusions and performances that are problematic for individuals or groups signify the dominance of a problem-saturated story.

Problem-saturated stories gain their dominance at the expense of preferred, alternative stories that often are located in marginalized discourses. These marginalized knowledges and identity performances are disqualified or invisibilized by discourses that have gained hegemonic prominence through their acceptance as guiding cultural narratives. Examples of these subjugating narratives include capitalism; psychiatry/psychology; patriarchy; heterosexism; and Eurocentricity.

Furthermore, binaries such as healthy/unhealthy; normal/abnormal; and functional/dysfunctional ignore both the complexities of peoples’ lived experiences as well as the personal and cultural meanings that may be ascribed to their experiences in context.

Common elements

Common elements in narrative therapy are:
The assumption that narratives or stories shape a person's identity, as when a person assesses a problem in their life for its effects and influences as a "dominant story";

An appreciation for the creation and use of documents, as when a person and a counsellor co-author "A Graduation from the Blues Certificate";

An "externalizing" emphasis, such as by naming a problem so that a person can assess its effects in her life, come to know how it operates or works in her life, relate its earliest history, evaluate it to take a definite position on its presence, and in the end choose their relationship to it.

A focus on "unique outcomes" (a term of Erving Goffman) or exceptions to the problem that wouldn't be predicted by the problem's narrative or story itself.

A strong awareness of the impact of power relations in therapeutic conversations, with a commitment to checking back with the client about the effects of therapeutic styles in order to mitigate the possible negative effect of invisible assumptions or beliefs held by the therapist.
Responding to personal failure conversations [7]

Method

In Narrative therapy a person's beliefs, skills, principles, and knowledge in the end help them regain their life from a problem. In practice a narrative therapist helps clients examine, evaluate, and change their relationship to a problem by acting as an “investigative reporter” who is not at the centre of the investigation but is nonetheless influential; that is, this therapist poses questions that help people externalize a problem and then thoroughly investigate it.

Intertwined with this problem investigation is the uncovering of unique outcomes or exceptions to its influences, exceptions that lead to rich accounts of key values and hopes—in short, a platform of values and principles that provide support during problem influences and later an alternate direction in life.

The narrative therapist, as an investigative reporter, has many options for questions and conversations during a person's effort to regain their life from a problem. These questions might examine how exactly the problem has managed to influence that person's life, including its voice and techniques to make itself stronger.

On the other hand, these questions might help restore exceptions to the problem's influences that lead to naming an alternate direction in life. Here the narrative therapist relies on the premise that, though a problem may be prevalent and even severe, it has not yet completely destroyed the person. So, there always remains some space for questions about a person's resilient values and related, nearly forgotten events. To help retrieve these events, the narrative therapist may begin a related re-membering conversation about the people who have contributed new knowledges or skills and the difference that has made to someone and vice-versa for the remembered, influential person.

Outsider Witnesses

In this particular narrative practice or conversation, outsider witnesses are invited listeners to a consultation. Often they are friends of the consulting person or past clients of the therapist who have their own knowledge and experience of the problem at hand. During the first interview, between therapist and consulting person, the outsider listens without comment.

Then the therapist interviews them with the instructions not to critique or evaluate or make a proclamation about what they have just heard, but instead to simply say what phrase or image stood out for them, followed by any resonances between their life struggles and those just witnessed. Lastly, the outsider is asked in what ways they may feel a shift in how they experience themselves from when they first entered the room[8]

Next, in similar fashion, the therapist turns to the consulting person, who has been listening all the while, and interviews them about what images or phrases stood out in the conversation just heard and what resonances have struck a chord within them.

In the end, an outsider witness conversation is often rewarding for witnesses. But for the consulting person the outcomes are remarkable: they learn they are not the only one with this problem, and they acquire new images and knowledge about it and their chosen alternate direction in life. The main aim of the narrative therapy is to engage in people's problems by providing the alternative best solution.

Criticisms of Narrative Therapy

To date, there have been several formal criticisms of Narrative Therapy over what are viewed as its theoretical and methodological inconsistencies, among various other concerns.[9][10][11]

Narrative therapy has been criticised as holding to a social constructionist belief that there are no absolute truths, but only socially sanctioned points of view, and that Narrative therapists therefore privilege their client's concerns over and above "dominating" cultural narratives.[10][12]

Several critics have posed concerns that Narrative Therapy has made gurus of its leaders, particularly in the light that its leading proponents tend to be overly harsh about most other kinds of therapy.[10][12] Others have criticized Narrative Therapy for failing to acknowledge that the individual Narrative therapist may bring personal opinions and biases into the therapy session.[10]

Narrative therapy is also criticized for the lack of clinical and empirical studies to validate its many claims.[13] Etchison & Kleist (2000) state that Narrative Therapy's focus on qualitative outcomes is not congruent with larger quantitative research and findings which the majority of respected empirical studies employ today. This has led to a lack of research material which can support its claims of efficacy.[13]

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:25 am
by Cambo
I'm feeling good about myself today. After so many people helping me, directly or indirectly, with my depression, last night I was able to give something back.

I was at a birthday party for a coworker and friend. There's quite a close knit group of us from my work, who regularly hang out and drink and generally mess about. I'd been on a road trip with quite a few of them, during which we bonded and became much closer.

Anyway, in the later hours of the party, I went out outside to find a few people gathered around a girl who I didn't know all that well. I mean, we'd chatted and hung out within the group, but nothing beyond that. She was crying, and her friends were doing their best to comfort her. I asked what was up, and she gave some evasive answer, but the birthday girl piped up: "talk to Cameron. He knows all about it." Turns out the crying girl had been struggling with depression over the past few months (I'd spoken with most of my the work crew about my depression. and had especially open conversations about it on the road trip).

So three of us- myself, the crying girl, and one of her close friends- ended up sitting down and having a deep and meaningful about depression. She was echoing so much of what I've been through, and I did my best to tell her all the things I need people to tell me when I'm in those states. For example, she said she was always afraid of talking to people about it because they maight think she was weird. So I told her the simple truth- nights spent biting my pillow and sobbing through my teeth, having my world crash down around my ears...then rebuilding only to have it come falling down again. I told her how many friends I had who experienced it even worse than me. We talked and we talked, and after we'd finished talking she hugged me and thanked me and told me that I had really helped her. Another guy at the party told me that he was very impressed at my openness, that he could only admit to his own depression if someone like me went before him.

So, today I feel like I've done some good, and that I offered something of worth. I also felt very grateful for places like this thread, which have helped me learn to set my shame aside and search for true, honest communication. So, thanks guys. You helped that girl as well.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:42 am
by Fist and Faith
Sounds like you did a great job, Cambo!

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:06 pm
by rusmeister
Hey, Loremaster, I'm just curious, is there any possibility, from your POV of psychology, to admit an appropriate place for shame?

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:09 pm
by Loredoctor
rusmeister wrote:Hey, Loremaster, I'm just curious, is there any possibility, from your POV of psychology, to admit an appropriate place for shame?
Can I get back to you on that? :) It's 10pm and I have an early start tomorrow.

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:01 pm
by rusmeister
Loremaster wrote:
rusmeister wrote:Hey, Loremaster, I'm just curious, is there any possibility, from your POV of psychology, to admit an appropriate place for shame?
Can I get back to you on that? :) It's 10pm and I have an early start tomorrow.
Sure. I'm often in the same situation myself.
I imagine most of us have real lives... :)

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:49 pm
by aliantha
You da man, Cambo. :)

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:20 pm
by Linna Heartbooger
Fist and Faith wrote:Say, Linna, why do you think "fake it till you make it" appears to work as often as it does?

:mrgreen:

But I have no idea how often it appears to work, and I've never tried it.
Wellll... I really don't expect ppl to ask unless someone's at least a bit interested... Sure, I -could- just babble about my personal pet theories, but if nobody is interested... then I'm wasting time thinking/typing and I'm just boring ppl.

Well, I think that "fake it 'til you make it" appears to work in an unusual number of cases, because... the person trying it:
A. Was already in the position where they had their "back to the wall" and they were ready to seek a solution - even if it would cost them something.
B. Comes into contact with a person outside him/herself, sees things which seem to be good/meritorious in that person, and begins to form a connection which seems positive. (and then a positive feedback loop gets going between the two)

Let's say you feel like you should be more kind to a co-worker, even though you mostly hate this person's guts because they regularly inconvenience you. So you "fake it" by bringing them a cup of coffee now and then, and saying "Good morning."

But then you come into contact with a real human personality - someone who smiles in surprise when you've said "good morning" the 30th time... (because they assume you're being genuine - and on some level - if you keep it up for 30 mornings in a row - maybe some of your intention WAS become genuine in the first place.) ...your co-worker who frankly says, "wow, I didn't know you before; sorry I thought you were kind of a jerk."

...and you begin to see "Hey, this person may have a good side, too." And the fictional model you had of this other person begins to crumble.

And by "you," I don't mean "you, Fist" in the specific... I mean the theoretical person who might try "fake it till you make it." Some of us would be doomed before we started because the apparent dishonesty this involves just doesn't "play nice" with who we are. (or we think that it won't.)

I think there's some relevance to spirituality, of course, but I'm not gonna go there for a wide variety of reasons. :)
FF wrote:I wouldn't have thought shame produces good short-term results. And never heard anyone suggest that it does, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are circumstances under which it does.
Welll... it at least appears to produce good short-term results - and even some impressive long-term ones. I grew up with a lot of shame-based parenting. Actually, I think almost every parent causes their kid to feel shame one way or another. *sigh* Just an occupational hazard, I guess!

Anyways, believe you me, as a firstborn, I sure did try to jump higher and higher to avoid my dad's criticism and meet his standards. I worked much harder to perform academically to impress him than I did for my relatively laid-back and easygoing mom. And the education I got because of all that continues to be darn useful to me... so I kinda hafta say, "Thanks, Dad!" (He did pretty well for what wisdom he had, really; dealing with the dysfunctionalities I ended up with is now my responsibility as an adult.)

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:47 pm
by Menolly
Cambo, never let it be said depression deprives one of empathy for another. As ali said,
aliantha wrote:You da man, Cambo. :)

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:02 pm
by Linna Heartbooger
Also- here is a a video relevant to the topic of "we have more power of independent action than we think we do."
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSIkjNaICsg&feature=related

It's hilarious to me because I've "been there," but am not "there" right now. (maybe not as amusing to ppl in other situations).

Cambo- awesome! I think that the ability to help people in that kind of way is a TYPICAL gain of depressive episodes - that is, if you're the sort of person who is willing to take the risks involved. (and that you're the sort of person designed to do that kind of thing; and that you're competent at understanding how you are made to work) :biggrin:
rusmeister wrote:Hey, Loremaster, I'm just curious, is there any possibility, from your POV of psychology, to admit an appropriate place for shame?
I foresee a horrible mismatch in which both sides do not understand each-others' terms. It behooves you to define your terms, rus. What's the difference between shame and guilt?

And then I hope you will listen to try to figure out how LM defines his. Cause they're almost guaranteed to not be quite the same.

LM- thanks. That's actually really interesting, I see a lot of the relevance and usefulness to that way of working at things, and I might comment more.

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:09 am
by rusmeister
Linna Heartlistener wrote:
Fist and Faith wrote:Say, Linna, why do you think "fake it till you make it" appears to work as often as it does?

:mrgreen:

But I have no idea how often it appears to work, and I've never tried it.
Wellll... I really don't expect ppl to ask unless someone's at least a bit interested... Sure, I -could- just babble about my personal pet theories, but if nobody is interested... then I'm wasting time thinking/typing and I'm just boring ppl.

Well, I think that "fake it 'til you make it" appears to work in an unusual number of cases, because... the person trying it:
A. Was already in the position where they had their "back to the wall" and they were ready to seek a solution - even if it would cost them something.
B. Comes into contact with a person outside him/herself, sees things which seem to be good/meritorious in that person, and begins to form a connection which seems positive. (and then a positive feedback loop gets going between the two)

Let's say you feel like you should be more kind to a co-worker, even though you mostly hate this person's guts because they regularly inconvenience you. So you "fake it" by bringing them a cup of coffee now and then, and saying "Good morning."

But then you come into contact with a real human personality - someone who smiles in surprise when you've said "good morning" the 30th time... (because they assume you're being genuine - and on some level - if you keep it up for 30 mornings in a row - maybe some of your intention WAS become genuine in the first place.) ...your co-worker who frankly says, "wow, I didn't know you before; sorry I thought you were kind of a jerk."

...and you begin to see "Hey, this person may have a good side, too." And the fictional model you had of this other person begins to crumble.

And by "you," I don't mean "you, Fist" in the specific... I mean the theoretical person who might try "fake it till you make it." Some of us would be doomed before we started because the apparent dishonesty this involves just doesn't "play nice" with who we are. (or we think that it won't.)

I think there's some relevance to spirituality, of course, but I'm not gonna go there for a wide variety of reasons. :)
FF wrote:I wouldn't have thought shame produces good short-term results. And never heard anyone suggest that it does, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are circumstances under which it does.
Welll... it at least appears to produce good short-term results - and even some impressive long-term ones. I grew up with a lot of shame-based parenting. Actually, I think almost every parent causes their kid to feel shame one way or another. *sigh* Just an occupational hazard, I guess!

Anyways, believe you me, as a firstborn, I sure did try to jump higher and higher to avoid my dad's criticism and meet his standards. I worked much harder to perform academically to impress him than I did for my relatively laid-back and easygoing mom. And the education I got because of all that continues to be darn useful to me... so I kinda hafta say, "Thanks, Dad!" (He did pretty well for what wisdom he had, really; dealing with the dysfunctionalities I ended up with is now my responsibility as an adult.)
A great comment in general, especially on what I think of as love - loving the unlovable, with the creation of the possibility that it may become lovable.
Linna wrote: rusmeister wrote:
Hey, Loremaster, I'm just curious, is there any possibility, from your POV of psychology, to admit an appropriate place for shame?


I foresee a horrible mismatch in which both sides do not understand each-others' terms. It behooves you to define your terms, rus. What's the difference between shame and guilt?

And then I hope you will listen to try to figure out how LM defines his. Cause they're almost guaranteed to not be quite the same.
I think it's great that you point this out; it didn't occur to me right away to juxtapose the terms.
From Merriam-Webster:
Definition of GUILT
1
: the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct
2
a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : self-reproach
3
: a feeling of culpability for offenses
Definition of SHAME
1
a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety b : the susceptibility to such emotion <have you no shame?>
2
: a condition of humiliating disgrace or disrepute : ignominy <the shame of being arrested>
3
a : something that brings censure or reproach; also : something to be regretted : pity <it's a shame you can't go> b : a cause of feeling shame
I'd say that correct understanding of the concepts is that guilt is the fact of wrongdoing, and shame is the emotion felt at the realization of wrongdoing. We don't, in general, speak of people being guilty of doing good.

I quite agree, again, that there can be a misapplication of shame. What I object to in the way y'all are talking, is the treatment of shame as something that IN ITSELF is necessarily bad. That CAN'T be true. Shame, as defined above, must be in its beginnings a positive thing that discourages wrongdoing. That it may be abused and misapplied is given, but so may anything else.

If anyone here has ever done somebody else wrong - and let's say really wrong, not just "was 5 minutes late to an appointment", then it is right to be ashamed of that, and to repent - be sorry for what you did and change your life so that you never do it again. Shame is the motivator to do right and so is a good thing. So while it is wrong for parents to abuse shame, it is right, lawful and necessary that they use shame, and encourage it on the child, when the child OUGHT to be ashamed.

A person that says that people ought not feel ashamed for wicked deeds, such as Timothy McVeigh for blowing up the OC Fed building, is a monster, and not entirely human. First admit that shame has a place, and then we can talk. But as long as you speak as if shame itself is the thing we ought to be ashamed of.... uh, waitaminnut...uh, point made. (I hope)

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:16 am
by Linna Heartbooger
It just occurred to me that I did a foolish thing (tm)... in that I encouraged a debate of the philosophical and very-intellectualized type on the "Depression" thread. This debate will by its nature need to be rather impersonal. (right?)

So, rus, would you create a new thread - say on the topic of "Shame and Guilt" - for your last post, or move it to an existing thread where it seems pretty content-relevant?

And then could you answer rus' pointed question there, LoreMaster? :)

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 12:19 pm
by Fist and Faith
You go, Linna! Good organizational skills! :D

Regarding "fake it till you make it", my first thought is that, if you decide to try such an approach, you have, to some degree, already made it. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't think there is any value in fitymi. And the "faking it" is really just developing a habit to go along with the attitude. Know what I mean?

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 4:13 pm
by Vraith
Fist and Faith wrote:You go, Linna! Good organizational skills! :D

Regarding "fake it till you make it", my first thought is that, if you decide to try such an approach, you have, to some degree, already made it. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't think there is any value in fitymi. And the "faking it" is really just developing a habit to go along with the attitude. Know what I mean?
There's an interesting conundrum in this. There is quite a bit of evidence that variations on this, conscious thought/behavior alterations, can help some people with depression. OTOH, for many one of the fundamental issues in being depressed to begin with is "I'm always faking it." And this is also often connected with objectless shame...shame that is experienced despite having no attachment to actual deeds/behaviors/responsibility on the part of the person feeling it...

Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:00 pm
by Fist and Faith
Yeah, as I said, it was my first thought. I didn't imagine it was the final word on the topic. :lol: Lots of different scenarios.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:07 pm
by lorin
Cambo, I admire you, I really do. You stepped outside your 'stuff' and helped someone else. It is not easy. You do that a lot around this site.

As for me, I have had quite a slip in the last week or so. Many reasons, not worth rehashing. But it is effecting my work. I haven't been going to work. I know the signs. sigh.....

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:47 am
by rusmeister
Linna Heartlistener wrote:It just occurred to me that I did a foolish thing (tm)... in that I encouraged a debate of the philosophical and very-intellectualized type on the "Depression" thread. This debate will by its nature need to be rather impersonal. (right?)

So, rus, would you create a new thread - say on the topic of "Shame and Guilt" - for your last post, or move it to an existing thread where it seems pretty content-relevant?

And then could you answer rus' pointed question there, LoreMaster? :)
Hi Linna!
I'm not at all sure that there is any debate. I think I just raised an aspect of shame that people usually don't think about. But who would debate it? In recognizing it, it just helps us keep a better proportion on the topic, and prevents false ideas - which really DO affect us in personal ways.

That said, if there were interest in debating anything about shame that we actually disagree with (if we do) then I wouldn't object to a thread split.

I realize that I talk "impersonally" and don't often go off on what personally brings me to tears - I find me rather uninteresting, and the 'impersonal' things are the things that are true (or not true) that influence our perception and understanding of our personal experiences. And if our perceptions are wrong, then the cure is in correcting them, not wallowing in them (not that I am describing anyone here that way, but using an emotional verb to describe essentially emotional activity). And if we have problems, like depression, then we most likely want to be cured of them. I imagine even the most modern psychologist would say that genuine illness is best dealt with by professionals. All we can do on these boards is what friends (who performed psychological functions long before anyone dreamed up psychology) might do for each other, and contribute in their own unique (and maybe sometimes weird) ways. I offer what I have to contribute - if it's really not wanted I'll drop out.

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:31 am
by Cambo
Lorin wrote:Cambo, I admire you, I really do. You stepped outside your 'stuff' and helped someone else. It is not easy. You do that a lot around this site.


:) Thanks, Lorin. That means a lot. It's funny feeling to hear I'm admired. (I almost put a blushing smiley, but Menolly, for one, would be on my ass :lol: ) Just don't forget there's a lot to be admired in you, as well.

There's a word in Maori, Arohanui, which literally translates to "big love." It's used to imply the love shared by a community, and the Watch has quickly become one of the places that I find it. Whatever I contribute to this site is due not in small part to what I found already here.
Lorin wrote:As for me, I have had quite a slip in the last week or so. Many reasons, not worth rehashing. But it is effecting my work. I haven't been going to work. I know the signs. sigh.....
|G Hang in there. Recognising the signs is one of the most important steps, and shows great self awareness. :)

Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:03 am
by lorin
rusmeister wrote: I find me rather uninteresting,
I bet you're way more interesting than you give yourself credit for. :wink: