Kevin's Watch

He is free to participate in the process. But if he tries to pass a law that makes genocide legal, I'm going to speak in opposition. Murderers and other ne'er do wells in society don't ever want to see laws that prevent them from murdering. But without those laws, there's no society. Only anarchy. Survival of the fittest. If that's what we want for the Pantheon, I have no problem. But if we must have Laws, and Hedra's existence means we must, I'd like a say in them.

Me too.

Goodness knows that we do not want to have to become politcally correct in this game that will stifle our creativity. There would be no point in playing.

It seems that we all agree we want a say in the laws if we must indeed have laws.

If we do not have to have laws, so much the better. I really don't think it will turn to anarchy - it will just make the game more fun.

Jove wrote:If we do not have to have laws, so much the better. I really don't think it will turn to anarchy - it will just make the game more fun.

NO LAWS! NO LAWS!!! Let CHAOS reign!! I knew I liked you WENCH!!

Murrin wrote:Posted. A piece in the style of one of Eiran's many (ha) academics, probably excerpted from some larger book on the unusual wildlife of Eiran. Also, I hope it's alright that I made them quite common--in Eiran they're just another part of the wildlife, rather than something rare or magical.

:::from the contest thread:::

Murrin wrote:Wyvern
being a small winged reptile native to the mountains of northern Landir.

I like them! And the name fits in with my weyrs and weyrlings...

Murrin wrote:I didn't intend anything by placing them in Landir--I just wanted the right environment, while keeping them a far removed from O-gon-cho's dragons as I could.

Brother! My dragons may be hunters, but they prefer red meat, boar and fowl over fellow reptiles. Harumph...

Just be forewarned, my creature will not be all that disimilar. GMTA and all I guess. They are different, but not as much as could be hoped.

Loremaster wrote: Nor has made many threats, but as Hedra Iren pointed out all the deities here have done some bad things. I don't see anyone getting upset at our resident assassin's actions (or his existence, for that matter).

:::again meekly raising hand:::

Still awaiting an accounting of things I can rectify or make ammends for, if Hedra Iren would be so kind...

Loremaster wrote:I can think of lots of ways, least of which is inventing a law that can be twisted to suit the person. Heck, that oath we uttered to get extra power - I found a way to circumvent the restrictions and actually abused the use of all that power.

OK, I definitely missed something here. There's an oath that can be said to gain power?

O-gon-cho wrote:Brother! My dragons may be hunters, but they prefer red meat, boar and fowl over fellow reptiles. Harumph...

Just be forewarned, my creature will not be all that disimilar. GMTA and all I guess. They are different, but not as much as could be hoped.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything about your dragons. Just wanted to make it as clear as possible that they were unrelated by having them from the opposite side of the world.

(The Wyvern was an old heraldic animal, which is where I took the name and basic idea from.)

Murrin wrote:(The Wyvern was an old heraldic animal, which is where I took the name and basic idea from.)

Very cool...

O-gon-cho wrote: OK, I definitely missed something here. There's an oath that can be said to gain power?

He referred to the time when Simjen met the AllFather in the mists beyond Eiran, and the AllFather offered to fulfill a wish from the whole Pantheon, as long as no god was opposed to it; the Pantheon, in turn, agreed to wish for a temporary increase in power under the condition that no god would use this additional power to harm any other god, his/her lands, and his/her followers and interests.

As for the Law - Menolly is right that - as you all know - there are rules and limitations in place for things you can and cannot do, and it has been so since the beginning; my PM box is proof of that Nevertheless, Hedra Iren's ascension has given those laws a "face" and a "voice" in the Pantheon. Truth be told, I could remove the domain of Law from the game, but then I would have to remove the opposite domain of Chaos, or things would be definitely unbalanced. However, I do feel that the law about attacking others is relatively fair: if nothing else, it ensures (or should ensure) that a god deciding to attack another knows he might face consequences for doing so. In other words, it ensures a kind of balance in the situation - otherwise, things could get out of hand. For instance, in a situation where the "evil" gods are much less than the "good" gods, it would otherwise be tempting for the "good" gods to mount an attack on the evil ones in order to wipe them out and ensure safety to their people, under the leadership of a god of justice or a benevolent god of war. While I agree that it is not the kind of law deities would give themselves, I believe it is important to ensure game balance; otherwise, if most of the deities are good, evil deities can be wiped out easily and quickly enough, and new players will never make up new evil deities, for fear of being squished as soon as newbie immunity wears off. For example, if a god of poisons and disease came into being and began discussing his view for a better world, and there were no laws preventing an attack, wouldn't gods such as Maeror or Adomorn ensure that as soon as his newbie immunity wears off, he'd be wiped away from the map? They'd certainly have the power now. And if Nor were alone, or even just with Melirelle, and no law stayed the hand of Adomorn and the others, wouldn't almost all the gods willingly give their power to Adomorn in order to destroy Nor? Lore might not object, but other players in the same situation could complain that "ganging up" would simply make it impossible to play a fine "evil" god.

Keep in mind, too, that not all evil gods are unconstrained by law; there might be evil gods who have a lawful mindset, and who might try to twist the laws to their advantage, but wouldn't break them. At the same time, there are good gods who couldn't care less about law, even if they broke it. And the fact that the law is endorsed by other gods means that if you break it, and no other god wants to go against you in retaliation, that's fine; Adomorn is, however, a more extreme example because Justice is based upon Law, and he would go against his nature if he acted against Law. But other gods have realized, for example, that there are other ways to harm a foe than to send their armies against him, circumventing the Law. It isn't nearly the obstacle you believe it to be.

The other possibility would be for players to restrain themselves so as not to crush one side utterly: but this would go against the roleplaying aspect itself.

Xar wrote:

O-gon-cho wrote: OK, I definitely missed something here. There's an oath that can be said to gain power?

He referred to the time when Simjen met the AllFather in the mists beyond Eiran, and the AllFather offered to fulfill a wish from the whole Pantheon, as long as no god was opposed to it; the Pantheon, in turn, agreed to wish for a temporary increase in power under the condition that no god would use this additional power to harm any other god, his/her lands, and his/her followers and interests.

:::blushing:::

Oh...that oath! Of course I remember that. It was while I was still in the shell, on the outside looking in. Before the mists parted and Immeril was revealed. Before Raucous found my egg and we Impressed and became beloved, one to the other. I had forgotten the details of how it worked, as I was not playing then. ::::

Xar wrote:As for the Law - Menolly is right that - as you all know - there are rules and limitations in place for things you can and cannot do, and it has been so since the beginning; my PM box is proof of that Nevertheless, Hedra Iren's ascension has given those laws a "face" and a "voice" in the Pantheon. Truth be told, I could remove the domain of Law from the game, but then I would have to remove the opposite domain of Chaos, or things would be definitely unbalanced. However, I do feel that the law about attacking others is relatively fair: if nothing else, it ensures (or should ensure) that a god deciding to attack another knows he might face consequences for doing so.

But, as long as you are being forthcoming, AllFather...

Am I also correct that all that is holding back Adomorn from doing what he so desperately wants to do is the consequences imposed upon him from his fellow deities, should they choose to give him consequences, and a possible Crisis of Faith among his followers for going against his nature of Justice? Even though he does not see it necessarily as going against his nature? Or are there other consequences to the Law from the AllFather of which I am unaware?

O-gon-cho wrote:

Xar wrote:As for the Law - Menolly is right that - as you all know - there are rules and limitations in place for things you can and cannot do, and it has been so since the beginning; my PM box is proof of that Nevertheless, Hedra Iren's ascension has given those laws a "face" and a "voice" in the Pantheon. Truth be told, I could remove the domain of Law from the game, but then I would have to remove the opposite domain of Chaos, or things would be definitely unbalanced. However, I do feel that the law about attacking others is relatively fair: if nothing else, it ensures (or should ensure) that a god deciding to attack another knows he might face consequences for doing so.

But, as long as you are being forthcoming, AllFather...

Am I also correct that all that is holding back Adomorn from doing what he so desperately wants to do is the consequences imposed upon him from his fellow deities, should they choose to give him consequences, and a possible Crisis of Faith among his followers for going against his nature of Justice? Even though he does not see it necessarily as going against his nature? Or are there other consequences to the Law from the AllFather of which I am unaware?

You are correct; technically speaking, that's what he's risking. The Crisis of the Faith might be particularly severe in view of the fact that he would be acting contrary to his own nature, but then again it might not - it would all depend.
However, it should also be mentioned that as god of justice, Adomorn is required to uphold the law; should he decide not to risk the Crisis and stay his hand, he would still be required to retaliate against any who break the law, or risk the Crisis due to failure to uphold the law he should safeguard.

Nevertheless, while these consequences are certainly severe, they are all that is holding him back - unless of course we also speak of roleplaying issues, which vary from player to player, naturally.

Xar wrote: Nevertheless, while these consequences are certainly severe, they are all that is holding him back - unless of course we also speak of roleplaying issues, which vary from player to player, naturally.

Should the Pantheon form a forum, similar to the United Nations, that would authorize Adomorn to lauch an assault on Nor Yekith after he airs his grievances, would he then be breaking the Law? Would we need to have the power of Law behind it? Or would the AllFather take a different view on what Adomorn had done, and still possibly strike him with a Crises of the Faith, regardless of what the forum may decide?

Would the entire Pantheon be subject to the AllFather's displeasure if such authorization, despite the apparent non-justification of such an assault on Nor Yekith, be given to Adomorn?

:::enquiring minds want to know:::

Xar wrote: .... but then I would have to remove the opposite domain of Chaos...

NooooOOOOOoooo!!!!

Xar wrote:

For instance, in a situation where the "evil" gods are much less than the "good" gods, it would otherwise be tempting for the "good" gods to mount an attack on the evil ones in order to wipe them out and ensure safety to their people, under the leadership of a god of justice or a benevolent god of war. While I agree that it is not the kind of law deities would give themselves, I believe it is important to ensure game balance; otherwise, if most of the deities are good, evil deities can be wiped out easily and quickly enough, and new players will never make up new evil deities, for fear of being squished as soon as newbie immunity wears off.

Ok, this makes good sense to me and I can now see the reasons behind the law. Now I understand.

I understand how the rule works to protect minority players. But the games almost over, and NOR is not a minority in power and influence. Thats why I just want to have it out. I'll probably lose anyway.

Balon wrote:I'll probably lose anyway.

Yep.

Weak.

Dont worry. I got some tricks up my sleeve. I've been working on some thermonuclear devices.

Balon wrote:Weak.

Dont worry. I got some tricks up my sleeve. I've been working on some thermonuclear devices.

Ever heard of Mutagen missiles, plague bombers, and malice tanks?

Loremaster wrote:

Balon wrote:Weak.

Dont worry. I got some tricks up my sleeve. I've been working on some thermonuclear devices.

Ever heard of Mutagen missiles, plague bombers, and malice tanks?

Ah crap.

Now even MY confindence is shot.

Balon wrote:Ah crap.

Now even MY confindence is shot.

This thread is number 12 in the top threads chart!

Loremaster wrote:This thread is number 12 in the top threads chart!

We're dorks.

12 2438 Pantheon 2.0 - Rules and Comments Thread
13 2427 Iraq

Guess that shows where OUR intrests are....