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[Blackhawk]

comparing Unforgiven to Avatar is like comparing Star Wars to Outlaw Josey Whales.. they should not even be in the same category..so my earlier statement of Avatar being the Best movie Ever should be changed to Best Sci Fi Flick ever to date. sure Blade Runner and Alien were both great movies but as for Avatar being a movie of Banality.. I have never seen a movie where human beings invade an alien planet and attempt unwittingly to kill their spirtual past..sure the concept of white man or the military invading is old but so is that of every SINGLE movie out there.. find me one movie that is not stealing or rehashing something already Filmed or written in some way 10x over,... and to actually say that Children of Men was the best sci fi of any era ...I have to disagree and further state that Children of men is just a skidmark in Avatars Underwear i wish i could say Children of men was a good movie because i had high hopes for it..but it fell far short of making me Think or feel anything at all "sterilization of human kind" and the youngest child being a Celebrity, I fell asleep..."Avatar being a Labotomized spectacle for the 9-5ers who have had their spirits crushed".. ive never seen someone insult 3/4s of the population of planet earth with one statement about Liking a sci fi movie.. I can only guess you were joking or having a knee jerk reaction or were off your meds that day

Blade runner and Alien were the best movies of their age but not this age.

No offense intended just returning the serve.

[Worm of Despite]

"Avatar being a Labotomized spectacle for the 9-5ers who have had their spirits crushed".. ive never seen someone insult 3/4s of the population of planet earth with one statement about Liking a sci fi movie.. I can only guess you were joking or having a knee jerk reaction or were off your meds that day

Nah, I meant it. I'm awesome like that.

I stand by why I think Avatar was hollow spectacle, and I truly believe it is, thus watching yet again with little surprise as a great mass of the world is suckered in. Kind of the same thing with Obama or Hitler (or Jesus, depending on your beliefs).

And I think the entire feel and the way Children of Men was shot was done with so much more maturity, finesse, and emotion. It really gripped me far better. Aliens and Blade Runner I merely cited as films that far outclass Avatar (in my book). I don't take into account what "era" or "age" they came from. I think Avatar is about as substantial in science fiction cannon as The Fifth Element. It just has things that draw (and still draw) in crowds much, much better (the technology being foremost).

As for Children of Men being a "skidmark"; well, at least you justified why it bored you. I found its theme of the impotency of the human race and its general feeling of decline especially pertinent (given our current economic doldrums), and it's overall aesthetic captivated me, as well as the aforementioned, subtle camera work. A very clean movie that reminded me a bit of Stanley Kubrick. A much artier and meatier slice of sci-fi is hard to come by.

No offense intended just returning the serve.

Certainly good sir! My skin is made of adamantite.

[Cail]

Children of Men is a great example of a simple, often-told story done well. I would much rather watch that again, rather than sit through Avatar's heavy-handed, immature preachyness.

[Worm of Despite]

Children of Men is a great example of a simple, often-told story done well. I would much rather watch that again, rather than sit through Avatar's heavy-handed, immature preachyness.

I do agree... The "shock and awe" quote was waaay too much. The whole thing was like being spoon fed.

[finn]

........at the risk of mentioning that there is an elephant in the room, there does seem to be an odd alignment of likes and dislikes of the movie to the alignment of American political leanings........ or is this purely coincidence?

Cameron is pretty much a straight 'A' Liberal and the like/dislike of this movie seems to have gravitated to what is usually seen in the Tank. I'm sure there will be denials and of course its hard to prove, but the movie as a whole seems to have been bypassed by some who have taken unbrage at "shock and awe" and the mineral exploiters Vs the tree huggers.

[Worm of Despite]

I'm not very political. My views are more focused on the social universe at large: morality, values, beliefs--mere ideas, energy of the brain--versus the reality of a world of chaos and murder when society is stripped bare or pulled from under us. Hurricane Katrina would be a good example; generosity only lasted a short while and things got nasty. Sociological stuff.

I just don't like poorly done satire or allegory. I guess you could pigeonhole Cail, who's a Republican, but Children of Men wasn't a Republican piece either, and he liked it (it transcended bias). I think it's not so much the message but the poor method of pushing it that bothers both me and Cail (though I haven't asked him; I can only surmise he agrees with me there).

I certainly didn't go into the film thinking, "I hope this film's not liberal," or leave thinking, "Damn, I wanted to like it, but it was just too liberal!"

[finn]

No, that's probably not what I meant, I was thinking more of the way the discussion has polarised over the last 4 pages or so of the thread. I also don't think you, Cail or anyone else is basing a like of dislike of a movie based purely upon political leaning; Cail for instance, likes Terminatior, True Lies etc. However this movie has references like shock and awe which tie it to Iraq or allegorise it to Native American Indians or imply a position regarding exploitative practices in the mining/mineral industries. For me, it did not concern me and I filtered the comments like shock and awe out. But I would understand it if some took a bit of offence and that it coloured their thinking both to the director and then the work as a consequence.

That the like/dislike fell along party lines was just a bit curious, that's all....

Ps. This is not the tank so I'm trying to be non-combatative!

[Cail]

To put it bluntly Finn, Avatar treats its audience like morons. It spoon-feeds its message to them. "Shock and awe" (get it?). It shows zero respect for the audience. The same can be said for every other Cameron movie except for the other two I listed.

Alec Baldwin is about as liberal as they come. I happen to think he's one of the five, possibly three finest actors alive today. His work transcends his beliefs, and he doesn't politicize his roles (unlike, say, Sean Penn). I check my politics at the door when I enter a theater.

[dANdeLION]

I do agree... The "shock and awe" quote was waaay too much. The whole thing was like being spoon fed.

Well, how else will you be able to know which political party to hate, if they don't spell it out for you?

[Usivius]

Avatar is a good movie and a really good sci-fi movie. But that is all. It is really a lot of well conceived smoke and mirrors with little lasting substance. Alien and Blade Runner (to site previous examples) have already stood the test of time and will continue to do so. Children of Men, is absolutely amazing ... it does not have the glitzyness of the previously mentioned movies, but that just shows how utterly amazing it is that it is so moving and awe-inspiring to watch without it. And it will also stand the test of time.
Avatar will go down as a popcorn movie with FX that were "good for it's day"...
(my two cents)

[Zarathustra]

That the like/dislike fell along party lines was just a bit curious, that's all....

It's a fair question. I think there might be something here, but I believe it's more about personality than politics. The same personality traits that make me dislike the "bleeding heart" part of "bleeing-heart-liberal" also makes me find this attitude distasteful in art. So it's not the politics that cause me to dislike it; it's my own personality traits that causes me to dislike that attitude in both politics and art. And philosophy. And religion. Anything that idealizes reality in an inauthentic, unrealistic way just annoys me. Both the inaccuracy in their portrayal of What it Means to Be Human, and the escapist reasons that motivate people to long for those kinds of inaccurate idealism. The same reason I detest the naive belief in the Noble Savage (as "better" than modern, civilized men) is the same reason I detest the belief that capitalist drive is bad, or government as savior, or Christ as savior, or the belief that mankind has something for which it needs to to Repent. I don't believe in a Fall of Man, whether that is a mystical religious belief, or a critique of modern capitalist civilization. I think humans are the most incredible thing this universe has produced, and it sickens me to see other humans take this beautiful gift and crap all over it by depicting humans (in general) as something less than The Most Incredible Collections of Matter in the Known Universe. (Yes, I realize there are assholes; exceptions. The broadbrush generalized judgments of humanity are what I'm talking about here.) Beliefs that force us to accept guilt, judgments of being "evil," "greedy," "unnatural," "a virus," "pollution," etc., etc. My rejection of this attitude permeates my views of science, philosphy, religion, history, economics, art . . . and yes politics.

Avatar just happens to get it wrong in nearly all those categories. So it would be incredibly disingenuous for me to pretend that I don't have this visceral reaction to the movie.

However, Cail is right about being spoon-fed. If Avatar's message had been done well (such as the more subtle environmentalism/anti-modernism/Fall of Man subtext of Lord of the Rings) I could still appreciate its artistic merits and disagree with the message. But the two combined together in Avatar makes it seem less than worthless to me.

Like Cail said, I like liberal actors and liberal art. I love the Daily Show and Colbert Report. Alec Baldwin is damn funny.

I even like Donaldson.

[Cagliostro]

It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you. But I totally understand feeling that way. I was that way with Titanic when I first saw it.

[wayfriend]

Anything that idealizes reality in an inauthentic, unrealistic way just annoys me. Both the inaccuracy in their portrayal of What it Means to Be Human, and the escapist reasons that motivate people to long for those kinds of inaccurate idealism. The same reason I detest the naive belief in the Noble Savage (as "better" than modern, civilized men) is the same reason I detest the belief that capitalist drive is bad, or government as savior, or Christ as savior, or the belief that mankind has something for which it needs to to Repent. I don't believe in a Fall of Man, whether that is a mystical religious belief, or a critique of modern capitalist civilization. I think humans are the most incredible thing this universe has produced, and it sickens me to see other humans take this beautiful gift and crap all over it by depicting humans (in general) as something less than The Most Incredible Collections of Matter in the Known Universe. (Yes, I realize there are assholes; exceptions. The broadbrush generalized judgments of humanity are what I'm talking about here.) Beliefs that force us to accept guilt, judgments of being "evil," "greedy," "unnatural," "a virus," "pollution," etc., etc. My rejection of this attitude permeates my views of science, philosphy, religion, history, economics, art . . . and yes politics.

So why do you work so hard to find these things in a movie that, as far as I can tell, doesn't have any of those things? Why does a bad person in a movie have to be a statement that all men are bad? Or that innocent people in a movie is a statement that all people of a certain class are innocent? Surely you don't see those messages in every movie with a bad guy or an innocent victim ... do you? If not, why do you make these leaps, leaps which I find quite unfounded, when you theorize about this movie, Avatar? Is it just for the enjoyment of tearing down something that is popularly enjoyed? Or is it that you disagree with the messages that the movie actually does make - you would have cut down that home tree, too - and so you want to find a way to invalidate that message somehow?

I see no indictment of humanity here - the characters who oppose the movie's protagonist aren't in any way designed to be representational of all human beings as far as I can tell. If it were so, the scientists would have been on the mercenaries side, too. I see no worship of primitive lifestyles here - the aliens in the movie, by all evidence we see, do actually live in a world which really does have spirits, which really does have an omni-present life force, and so they really do have to revere the nature that they live in. Sully's motive for joining the aliens isn't because he's learned to find a primitive culture superior, not by any evidence you could point out in the film. He was quite ready to introduce them to firearms, for example. Nor is it because he rejects being human, on the same basis.

[dANdeLION]

It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you.

That's not exactly true, and a few posts after the one you've mis-characterized, he expanded on his misgivings.

[Worm of Despite]

Alec Baldwin is about as liberal as they come. I happen to think he's one of the five, possibly three finest actors alive today.

Amen! That guy has class.

And I think the most subtle and provocative film satire was done in A Clockwork Orange. I had to watch it a few times to truly appreciate it. Or if you want something with a clear message (which Avatar failed at), try Paths of Glory. Fine anti-war film.

From all I gathered of Avatar, action is awesome, tribal face paint is more awesome, and something about trees.

I do agree... The "shock and awe" quote was waaay too much. The whole thing was like being spoon fed.

Well, how else will you be able to know which political party to hate, if they don't spell it out for you?

Well, they do it to themselves. I don't like liberals for that reason. All their art is either a conspiracy theory or a panic attack where they grab you by the shoulders and go, LOOK, DAMN YOU! LOOK AT THE TREES! Real artists don't let politics get in the way. Like that elephant that paints.

[Cagliostro]

It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you.

That's not exactly true, and a few posts after the one you've mis-characterized, he expanded on his misgivings.

Actually, that's exactly true, and I've "mis-characterized" nothing. Here is his exact statement:

Saw Avatar today. I liked it. Plot didn't bother me too much, except that it was very simplistic.

But you are right, he did expand on it, and has turned around on it completely. My reason for pointing that out wasn't some attempt to completely discredit anything Z had to say; it was to point out that I did the exact same thing with Titanic - I liked it at first, and as I thought about it, I came to dislike it.

So back off, man....

[babybottomfeeder]

Avatar is one of those stories that are told over and over within our culture, white man leads a bunch of natives to victory over whites. I love these tales! The most striking example and closest relative to Avatar is Dances With Wolves. Basically, Dances With Wolves is the same movie, right down to the CGI Kevin Costner. Both feature a soldier going off into the wild, learning from natives, and eventually leading them to victory over whitey. Yay!
I wish instead of going into the jungle and learning from the natives, some white defender would go into the ghetto and save some "urbans". Oh wait, that was the movie The Super starring Joe Pesci. Yessss! That movie used age old themes and produced a gem of a blockbuster! Joe Pesci playing basketball LOL! There was nothing offensive about that film! White man did it again! White man always doing it!
I hear when a society tells the same story over and over again, it totally doesnt reinforce that certain hegemonic forces are inherently superior. In fact, it does the exact opposite. Take The Last Samurai starring Tom Cruisen for a Bruisen as an example. Dr. Bruiser is the Last Samurai in all of Asialand because his whiteness < his asianess. It is an historical fact that whites were forced to become the last of everything in dramatic retellings of history in order to prove there is no White hegemony in American culture. S-u-c-c-e-s-s that's the way we spell "not implicitly racist".

[Blackhawk]

Alec Baldwin is about as liberal as they come. I happen to think he's one of the five, possibly three finest actors alive today.

Amen! That guy has class.

And I think the most subtle and provocative film satire was done in A Clockwork Orange. I had to watch it a few times to truly appreciate it. Or if you want something with a clear message (which Avatar failed at), try Paths of Glory. Fine anti-war film.

From all I gathered of Avatar, action is awesome, tribal face paint is more awesome, and something about trees.

I do agree... The "shock and awe" quote was waaay too much. The whole thing was like being spoon fed.

Well, how else will you be able to know which political party to hate, if they don't spell it out for you?

Well, they do it to themselves. I don't like liberals for that reason. All their art is either a conspiracy theory or a panic attack where they grab you by the shoulders and go, LOOK, DAMN YOU! LOOK AT THE TREES! Real artists don't let politics get in the way. Like that elephant that paints.

I truly thought all Hollywood as a whole was liberal, I dont care about any of that, I Love the movie for its Graphics and the characters Expressive abilities they have overcome with CGI, and the Trees and wildlife were AWESOME...not to mention the depth of the 3D experience, but as for the simplistic views the movie portrays i have to agree it was simple, as for politics..it bores the hell out of me on both sides... Take both parties and slam their melons together so hard it knocks them both out and ahhhhhhhhhh... silence. now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously.. In Avatars case, nothing new with some marines yelling "GET SOME" and blasting away at the natives, its all part of the sci fi experience. Alien 2 was alot like that but in the case of the Aliens in that flick I was cheering for the Marines.

after all this is just a movie, and my motivations were toward the technology and beauty rather than politicians looting.

btw favorite part of Blade Runner,... Rutger Hauers Final thoughts and telling of his past to Harrison Ford before he dies. ... sometimes great movies need to be refreshed in your mind.. its been years since i watched it..and tonight i think i will.

Clockwork Orange.. Great strange movie but i really did like it. my wife didnt believe me when i told her the main character was one of the guys in Entourage.

[Worm of Despite]

In Avatars case, nothing new with some marines yelling "GET SOME" and blasting away at the natives, its all part of the sci fi experience. Alien 2 was alot like that but in the case of the Aliens in that flick I was cheering for the Marines.

I was cheering for the Marines in Avatar, too. Oh, you meant Aliens. Woops!!

[babybottomfeeder]

I truly thought all Hollywood as a whole was liberal, I dont care about any of that, I Love the movie for its Graphics and the characters Expressive abilities they have overcome with CGI, and the Trees and wildlife were AWESOME...not to mention the depth of the 3D experience, but as for the simplistic views the movie portrays i have to agree it was simple, as for politics..it bores the hell out of me on both sides... Take both parties and slam their melons together so hard it knocks them both out and ahhhhhhhhhh... silence. now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously...

This is one of the greatest things I have ever read! Way 2 go :0. Blackhawk has hit on a secret few people know, FICTION is not to be taken seriously! Taking political messages from FICTION leads to a division of POLITICS. In order to get the true, non biased reality of the universe, one must turn to empirically true films like Milk and Frost/Nixon. These films were extracted from the sap of the Truth Berry Tree, where only true POLITICS exists. Once extracted, sap of the TBT (Truth Berry Tree to all you N00bs ) instantly turns into a roll of film which evaporates through the Pleasure Dome and into the projectors of all the Truth centers in the United States.


Bravo!