How bad is it?

[High Lord Tolkien]

P.s. BBCode seems to be messing up lately. When I disable it the comments post correctly, but I lose all coding.

Your pic is too big.

[peter]

That's fair comment WOTWE, but that last post of mine was a sort of afterthought refering more to the one above where I requested Horrim Carabal to 'grade' the first two series as he had the third. Perhaps not a fair thing to do - but still approaching the essence of the point I am after. I am of the opinion that the Last Chrons is a much harder literary trick to pull of than the first two, more plot driven narratives - and I am also of the opinion that Donaldson has failed pretty badly. My opinion, neither right or wrong, just my opinion. Now - forget that. There are many here for whom the reading of the Last Chrons has clearly been a rich and rewarding experience and I envy them greatly. What I am very interested to know from these lucky individuals is whether they can tell me, hand on heart, that the Last Chrons are giving them as much, if not more pleasure to read as the first and second Chrons gave them (either at the time or in re-reading them now). I can read the Last Chrons because they are TC storys - I have that pre-formed interest in all things Land based. I want to know what is going to happen to the Land I love, but I could never say in a million years that these last three books are (in my opinion again) a patch on the 6 that preceed them. This may be unfair to Donaldson - as I say, what he is trying to do this time is a MUCH harder thing to pull of - but nevertheless for me it is the case.

That requires a judgment based on memory, and memories are tainted by nostalgic feelings. The enjoyment of the present Chrons may also be tainted by nostalgia over the past Chrons. Furthermore, I trust that, for most of us, we are much older than when we first read the Chrons and our tastes have changed. I know mine have.

If we are to settle on mere statements of liking and disliking, and not move beyond that level, then this is an admission that we lack the skill and knowledge to give the Chrons an objective analysis, even if we call that analysis an opinion. Giving one's opinion is far preferable to liking/disliking something.

I also have an issue with giving impressions on something. Impressions can and probably will change with each reading. My impression of Chapter One of AATE was bad at first, but that impression improved on the second and third reading. My impression of the A-Team movie was bad, it was a disappointing experience, but I predict that if I were to watch it a couple more times the movie would seem to improve. I would forget about the original A-Team and find myself enjoying the movie on its own merits. My previous disappointment was only based on the subconscious expectation that the movie be like the old series, particularly in the characterization.

As for the Last Chrons, my desire is that anybody's tastes in books, including my own, should have grown, and not just changed, along with Donaldson's writing ability. Otherwise, we will be, in the literary sense, much like the proverbial 40-year-old virgin still living in his parents' basement.

Saying something is "my opinion" is far preferable to being absolute about art; on the other hand, it can also serve as an excuse to weasel out of having one's own opinions critiqued. Even a judge's opinion on a case may be readjudicated in another venue.

You say that the Last Chrons is harder for Donaldson to pull off, and indeed he has admitted as much himself. However, the reader must also rise to the challenge. How can we say that Donaldson failed his task before he has even finished it? And perhaps in some cases it is the reader who has failed Donaldson, and not Donaldson who has failed the reader. If he manages to convince enough readers, then he will put bread on the table, and in the long run that's what it's all about. Objectively speaking, in terms of sales and critical reviews, Donaldson has not failed his task with the Last Chrons.

Sorry WOTWE so much of this is sophistry and just plain avoidence of the question I have asked. Are you or are you not deriving more enjoyment from the last Chrons than from the first two. If you answer this I can then try and find out what it is that I have missed, or what it is that is beyond me, that is spoiling my enjoyment of something I have waited the best part of a quater of a century for.

This 'nostalgia' argument just does not stack up. I have read the 1st and 2nd Chrons every few years since they first came out - and gained more and loved them more on each reading. I'm on my 3rd reading of the Last Chrons and I'm still not getting it.

It's just not fair to pour cold water on the idea of 'liking or disliking' the books. Hellfire (bit of TC there you note - the old TC that is) thats the reason we're all here - because we like the books. Of course there are additional insights bennefits that can be derived froma book over and above the sheer joy that reading it gives one - but why should that joy be viewed with contempt thereby. I resent this. For me the Joy the Land has given me is not just a candy floss level entertainment that I can take or leave. It has been a refuge, a place of comfort, a light in what has at times seemed an otherwise dark existence. You be 'objective' by all means if that is what the books are to you - an exercise in literary criticism. To me they are Life, they are Joy, they are Hope and I prefer it that way.

[drew]

This 'nostalgia' argument just does not stack up. I have read the 1st and 2nd Chrons every few years since they first came out - and gained more and loved them more on each reading. I'm on my 3rd reading of the Last Chrons and I'm still not getting it.

I would argue that this statement CONFIRMS the nostalgia argument!!

If you read the first and second chrons every few years since they came out; and now you are reading the final chrons, which no one could disagree are written much differently than the first two. Then one could argue that its the differences in story line and writing style that you are not enjoying.

I Am of the enjoying the Final Chronicles camp. I loved Runes the first time I read it, and though I am only halfway through Against, I completely love it too.

I've been reading the Chrons for almost twenty years, and I feel that if these books were written the same way, with a similar story line, it would seem boring.


I won't deny that there are parts of these three books that I don't enjoy, or don't really care about...but there were equally parts of the second and even (gasp) the First Chrons that I didn't care, or didn't enjoy reading about, either.

But just like the first two Chronicles, the enjoyable parts -for me- far outweigh the un-enjoyable parts.

[peter]

I have never had ANY unenjoyable parts in any of the first six books so I don't understand this. Similarly I have no unenjoyable parts of the third series; the problem is I don't haqve any enjoyable parts either.

[Horrim Carabal]

I have never had ANY unenjoyable parts in any of the first six books so I don't understand this.

You enjoyed the interminable journey back to the Land in the first part of WGW? To me that was more boring than any of Linden's introspection in AATE.

[peter]

If I had been bored by any of it (including the Last Chrons I have to say - I have never accused them of being boring), I would have abandoned the books at that point and never returned to them. This is the worst crime you can accuse a book of.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

If I had been bored by any of it (including the Last Chrons I have to say - I have never accused them of being boring), I would have abandoned the books at that point and never returned to them. This is the worst crime you can accuse a book of.

That's not the worst crime, this is:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_(novel)

The novel's plot vaguely resembles actual events that have transpired since the book's publication, to a degree that the author is no longer comfortable with the book being in print for fear that it may inspire similar occurrences ("[Rage is] now out of print, and a good thing."), as it had already been associated with incidents of high school shootings and hostage takings:
Jeffrey Lyne Cox, a senior at San Gabriel High School in San Gabriel, California, took a semi-automatic rifle to school on April 26, 1988 and held a humanities class of about 60 students hostage for over thirty minutes before being tackled and disarmed by another student. A friend of Cox told the press that Cox had been inspired by the Kuwait Airways Flight 422 hijacking and by the novel Rage, which Cox had read over and over again and strongly identified with.
Dustin L. Pierce, a senior at Jackson County High School in McKee, Kentucky, armed himself with a shotgun and two handguns and took an algebra classroom hostage in a nine-hour standoff with police on September 18, 1989 that ended without injury. Police found a copy of Rage among the possessions in Pierce's bedroom, leading to speculation that he had been inspired to carry out the plot of the novel.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Sorry WOTWE so much of this is sophistry and just plain avoidence of the question I have asked. Are you or are you not deriving more enjoyment from the last Chrons than from the first two. If you answer this I can then try and find out what it is that I have missed, or what it is that is beyond me, that is spoiling my enjoyment of something I have waited the best part of a quater of a century for.

This 'nostalgia' argument just does not stack up. I have read the 1st and 2nd Chrons every few years since they first came out - and gained more and loved them more on each reading. I'm on my 3rd reading of the Last Chrons and I'm still not getting it.

It's just not fair to pour cold water on the idea of 'liking or disliking' the books. Hellfire (bit of TC there you note - the old TC that is) thats the reason we're all here - because we like the books. Of course there are additional insights bennefits that can be derived froma book over and above the sheer joy that reading it gives one - but why should that joy be viewed with contempt thereby. I resent this. For me the Joy the Land has given me is not just a candy floss level entertainment that I can take or leave. It has been a refuge, a place of comfort, a light in what has at times seemed an otherwise dark existence. You be 'objective' by all means if that is what the books are to you - an exercise in literary criticism. To me they are Life, they are Joy, they are Hope and I prefer it that way.

I don't know what "contempt" you're talking about. Please try to address those things I am actually stating.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

P.s. BBCode seems to be messing up lately. When I disable it the comments post correctly, but I lose all coding.

Your pic is too big.

I reported this issue before I posted the comment with the pic. It first occurred right on message #806344.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

This 'nostalgia' argument just does not stack up. I have read the 1st and 2nd Chrons every few years since they first came out - and gained more and loved them more on each reading. I'm on my 3rd reading of the Last Chrons and I'm still not getting it.

I would argue that this statement CONFIRMS the nostalgia argument!!

If you read the first and second chrons every few years since they came out; and now you are reading the final chrons, which no one could disagree are written much differently than the first two. Then one could argue that its the differences in story line and writing style that you are not enjoying.

I Am of the enjoying the Final Chronicles camp. I loved Runes the first time I read it, and though I am only halfway through Against, I completely love it too.

I've been reading the Chrons for almost twenty years, and I feel that if these books were written the same way, with a similar story line, it would seem boring.


I won't deny that there are parts of these three books that I don't enjoy, or don't really care about...but there were equally parts of the second and even (gasp) the First Chrons that I didn't care, or didn't enjoy reading about, either.

But just like the first two Chronicles, the enjoyable parts -for me- far outweigh the un-enjoyable parts.

It's not uncommon for posters to unknowingly disagree and agree with me over precisely the same issue. That's part of what makes this so much fun. I haven't re-read the 1st and 2nd Chrons in decades, and I see no reason to although I did recently start a re-read of TWL. The difference in quality of writing is striking, even between that and the Gap (I haven't read any other Donaldson). My subjective reading experience is to become a little more cynical for the most part. Covenant has to cover hundreds of leagues of ground, so let's create the magic Waynhim handshake. Yawn. But at first read it was very exciting and original stuff. I'll admit, it is the first book and those are always weaker.

[TheFallen]

Let me go into detail. You said the only objectivity in books is the word count. I'm certain with a little effort you can find more.

That wasn't me actually... that's a little too minimalist for my taste.

I haven't asked anybody a personal question such as "what do you appreciate about AATE or the Last Chrons?" I have only thrown some examples of appreciation out there. If they fall to the ground, so be it. But I haven't accused anybody of being blind to anything, have I? This is becoming personal toward me once again.

You have strongly intimated at the very least that certain are misled by nostalgia. Anyhow, this isn't personal - I'm simply pointing out the very banal point that others with an equal study ofwhat is de facto the very evidence can justifiably come up with equally justifiable conclusions - subjectivism again, and nothing wrong with that.

One person's junk is another's treasure. I am not about to turn this into an art class, but consider the following piece of junk

Not my favourite Picasso by any stretch - but I don't want to get into a discussion on the relative merits of Guernica (it'd be futile to try to discuss its absolute merits, if they even exist).

Is the Chrons a series? Anyway, I've only mentioned the trope of the downer second book, or even second movement of a symphony, followed by the up-swing. Particular tropes are not inevitable by any means. But going by everything else I've read of Donaldson's, I predict we are in for a hell of a ride, and particularly, I believe, because he intends it to go out with a bang.

Yes the Chrons is a series - I think we can rely on the titling chosen by the author. More so, it's a progression, and given the evidence as I see it, I'm uneasy about where SRD has progressed to, the goals that he now seems to be setting himself and the narrative means by which he is attempting to effect them.

As I said before, you have more faith than I, based on your evaluation of the self-same evidence That's your prerogative, as my ambivalence is mine. I might claim your faith is blind, and you might claim the same about my doubts - but since we're not dealing in absolutes but instead in equally valid subjective perceptions, the two are not mutually exclusive.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

Let me go into detail. You said the only objectivity in books is the word count. I'm certain with a little effort you can find more.

That wasn't me actually... that's a little too minimalist for my taste.

That's true, it wasn't you, and I can't remember the name of the actual poster.

I haven't asked anybody a personal question such as "what do you appreciate about AATE or the Last Chrons?" I have only thrown some examples of appreciation out there. If they fall to the ground, so be it. But I haven't accused anybody of being blind to anything, have I? This is becoming personal toward me once again.

You have strongly intimated at the very least that certain are misled by nostalgia. Anyhow, this isn't personal - I'm simply pointing out the very banal point that others with an equal study ofwhat is de facto the very evidence can justifiably come up with equally justifiable conclusions - subjectivism again, and nothing wrong with that.

"Strongly intimated" is based on your subjective perceptions of what I wrote. But I wrote it and therefore my perceptions of it are more objective than yours.

One person's junk is another's treasure. I am not about to turn this into an art class, but consider the following piece of junk

Not my favourite Picasso by any stretch - but I don't want to get into a discussion on the relative merits of Guernica (it'd be futile to try to discuss its absolute merits, if they even exist).

I don't either. And I have already rejected artistic absolutes in a previous comment. I just wanted to ask: if you did not know of Picasso or any of his paintings, what would you think of Guernica at first glance? Or what did you think of it?

Is the Chrons a series? Anyway, I've only mentioned the trope of the downer second book, or even second movement of a symphony, followed by the up-swing. Particular tropes are not inevitable by any means. But going by everything else I've read of Donaldson's, I predict we are in for a hell of a ride, and particularly, I believe, because he intends it to go out with a bang.

Yes the Chrons is a series - I think we can rely on the titling chosen by the author. More so, it's a progression, and given the evidence as I see it, I'm uneasy about where SRD has progressed to, the goals that he now seems to be setting himself and the narrative means by which he is attempting to effect them.

As I said before, you have more faith than I, based on your evaluation of the self-same evidence That's your prerogative, as my ambivalence is mine. I might claim your faith is blind, and you might claim the same about my doubts - but since we're not dealing in absolutes but instead in equally valid subjective perceptions, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Perceptions? I'm making predictions. As always. But my perception is that Donaldson has never let us down before, in the long run; and my perception is that Covenant wields the white gold ring once again. He has the Krill to activate it. Linden has another ring plus the Staff. And Covenant's mind is now healed. That seems objective enough; I don't have a strange feeling that these things happened, they did happen.

You'll see.

[TheFallen]

You have strongly intimated at the very least that certain are misled by nostalgia. Anyhow, this isn't personal - I'm simply pointing out the very banal point that others with an equal study ofwhat is de facto the very evidence can justifiably come up with equally justifiable conclusions - subjectivism again, and nothing wrong with that.

"Strongly intimated" is based on your subjective perceptions of what I wrote. But I wrote it and therefore my perceptions of it are more objective than yours.

Yes. I'm subjectively perceiving the two comments you made that now follow:-

in the case of the Last Chrons, it's about what people know about the first two and the memory of their reactions at the time of first reading. Their reactions to the Last Chrons are necessarily colored by these previous experiences (as can obviously be seen in their comments). Nostalgia also makes the first two Chrons appear better than they really were, the long and boring sections have taken a backseat to the dramatic parts and are no longer remembered as strongly.

...and

But I suppose a thread such as this is necessary to allow some blowing off of nostalgia steam among the disappointed fanboy crowd.

On the above basis, I think my usage of "strongly intimated" was actually rather understated.

As I said before, you have more faith than I, based on your evaluation of the self-same evidence That's your prerogative, as my ambivalence is mine. I might claim your faith is blind, and you might claim the same about my doubts - but since we're not dealing in absolutes but instead in equally valid subjective perceptions, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Perceptions? I'm making predictions. As always. But my perception is that Donaldson has never let us down before, in the long run; and my perception is that Covenant wields the white gold ring once again. He has the Krill to activate it. Linden has another ring plus the Staff. And Covenant's mind is now healed. That seems objective enough; I don't have a strange feeling that these things happened, they did happen.

You'll see.

I'm starting to think that you're focussing solely on SRD achieving an entirely satisfactory and well-resolved end to the story - the narrative conclusion, if you like, which I of course grant we've not seen yet. You're predicting a good outcome, based upon the point the narrative has reached. It seems that if SRD manages that, then that's all fine for you - and you're fully entitled to think that, if you do.

But that's really not at all what I'm on about. I'm entirely referring to the entire narrative progression in the Last Chrons so far - I'm uneasy with things having become far more (and I would say unbalancedly) internalised and psychodramatic, I'm uneasy with SRD's apparent disposable approach to secondary characters, I'm uneasy with narrative pacing, I'm uneasy with pop-up diaboli ex machinae, to name just a few issues I have perceived. And I have perceived them - they are undeniably experientally real to me.

Thus the fact that I - even if I alone - perceive these issues within the Last Chrons up until this point is inevitably going to negatively affect my personal view of and response to the Last Chrons as a whole. For me, appreciating a novel is not solely dependant upon a satisfactory last-minute denouement being pulled out of the hat - it's about enjoying and appreciating the whole journey as a reader. And that applies even more to a series.

And so to me, the narrative end does not justify the means. My journey so far through the Last Chrons is one of ambivalence and that is a far weaker personal response - for the reasons given above - than those evoked in me by any of my several readings of Chrons 1 and 2.

[alanm]

well as I think some other poster has stated, I have read and reread the 1st and 2nd chrons many times. I hace read each of the 3rd chrons once only because they do not inspire me to want to read them any more than that.

As part of the series, where do the last set of books fit in. In my mind there is absolutely no continuity from the end of WGW to runes and beyond. I have read the 1st and 2nd chrons enough to know this. There really is no justification for the 3rd chronicles, apart from SRD wanting to make money out of the public.

[Cambo]

I think it's pretty cynical to accuse SRD of simply selling out. He's had the ideas for this Chronicles kicking around in his head since before he wrote the Second Chronicles. Personally, I see a whole lot of logical progression from the Second to the Last Chronicles.

But that's personal experience. If you don't, that's fine. I'm sorry for those that are feeling let down by the LC. I think it's valid to accuse SRD of failure. That's something to debate, as I haven't felt he's failed at all. But accusing him of just being in it for the money is unfair. He's a writer. That's his job and his passion, and Covenant was his first creative passion. Isn't it more likely, irrespective of how good you think the LC are, that he's gone back to the Land simply because he wants to?

[Orlion]

Or needs to (see new Nov. 06 structured interview on his website!).
Once again, any writer wanting to make money, especially in today's world, doesn't take three years to write a single volume. That's not how the publishing world works these days. You also don't make Linden the main point of view character throughout the series. A lot more people would probably enjoy and buy these books if there was more Covenant point of view. He'd make more money.

Nope, saying he's failing because he's just trying to make money is lazy. Saying that he's failing because of x, y, or z in the story is different. It's also expected. I, of course, think he's doing a terrific job. I view the increased psychodrama as a strength, I thought the chapters in the meadow were intense!. I was chanting at my book, "Don't do it Linden, don't give him the Staff and Ring, it's a mistake Linden, someone knock some since into her, Linden, you dumb b!+ch!"

And then everything else... simply glorious!

[Horrim Carabal]

I was chanting at my book, "Don't do it Linden, don't give him the Staff and Ring, it's a mistake Linden, someone knock some since into her, Linden, you dumb b!+ch!"

[alanm]

I think it's pretty cynical to accuse SRD of simply selling out. He's had the ideas for this Chronicles kicking around in his head since before he wrote the Second Chronicles. Personally, I see a whole lot of logical progression from the Second to the Last Chronicles.

But that's personal experience. If you don't, that's fine. I'm sorry for those that are feeling let down by the LC. I think it's valid to accuse SRD of failure. That's something to debate, as I haven't felt he's failed at all. But accusing him of just being in it for the money is unfair. He's a writer. That's his job and his passion, and Covenant was his first creative passion. Isn't it more likely, irrespective of how good you think the LC are, that he's gone back to the Land simply because he wants to?

Well, he says hea had the ideas for a while.....

Having an idea and then writing some books to try and continue a series because he simply wants to go back to the Land aren't always a good idea as is the case here, in my opinion SRD has failed. All He has done is create a news series of books which he has tried to somehow integrate into what was an exceptional story. In this respect he has failed. Therefore the only conclusion I am left with is that he has done it for money.

[Cambo]

But how does the opinion that he has failed lead to the conclusion that he's in it purely for the money? Just because it "wasn't a good idea" and it "failed to integrate" into the backstory. I just don't see how that follows. Why is it out of the question that he simply tried to do something great and failed?

Put another way, how does

Premise One: Continuing a series just because an author wants to isn't always a good idea.

and

Premise Two: Stephen Donaldson has failed to integrate his latest creation with his previous series.

lead to

Conclusion: Stephen Donaldson has sold out.

[TheFallen]

I think it's pretty cynical to accuse SRD of simply selling out. He's had the ideas for this Chronicles kicking around in his head since before he wrote the Second Chronicles. Personally, I see a whole lot of logical progression from the Second to the Last Chronicles.

Yes, I don't think there's any evidence or indeed question whatsoever of an authorial sell-out. I also see a logical progression of authorial interest and intent throughout all three Chrons, moving (in my view) from a well-balanced focus on both outer and inner conflicts to a far tighter view on almost exclusively internal struggles. This progression is more than trackable, it's just that I find the balance harder to deal with to the point of my becoming less engrossed by the overall narrative. It seems that I react better to a wider lens and a range of characters - fully realised and handled with authorial care rather than apparent indifference - to empathise with, rather than an incredibly tight, constant and admittedly deep camera angle on just one character... but that's just me.

Of course, SRD can guide his creation in whatever direction most interests him - it is, after all entirely his. And I also get the sense of the Last Chrons being a work that he felt almost compelled to create.

Once again, any writer wanting to make money, especially in today's world, doesn't take three years to write a single volume. That's not how the publishing world works these days. Nope, saying he's failing because he's just trying to make money is lazy.

And that's the key point - whatever else the Last Chrons may be, they are clearly not the sort of thing that can be dashed off, both because of length and complexity. It cannot be about making a fast buck (or even an average speed one, for that matter).