President Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital

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Skyweir
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Post by Skyweir »

:crazy:

🙄 ummm ... its not a sovereignty issue .. there not an international police force, they were never intended to do that .. they have a peace keeping force thats it.

The problem is the security council .. and the fact that it is dominated by 5 powers. They have power of veto .. get rid of the veto power and majority rules. We dont need permanent members now .. the world has moved on.

The UN has a critical role .. that was recognised widely after WWI and toward the end of WWII..
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Skyweir wrote::crazy:

🙄 ummm ... its not a sovereignty issue .. there not an international police force, they were never intended to do that .. they have a peace keeping force thats it.

The problem is the security council .. and the fact that it is dominated by 5 powers. They have power of veto .. get rid of the veto power and majority rules. We dont need permanent members now .. the world has moved on.

The UN has a critical role .. that was recognised widely after WWI and toward the end of WWII..
It most certainly is a sovereignty issue. What nation is going to set aside its governing documents and government in order to comply with a UN decree? Not going to happen.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Kizza wrote:The UN charter at present aims up at extreme poverty and hunger, universal primary education, gender equality, child mortality, maternal health, HIV/AIDS, malaria and other diseases, environmental sustainability, and a global partnership for development. Why wouldnt you support that?
Other nations could have that if they would get themselves out of their Old World point of view and join the 21st Century. To pick an example mostly at random, consider Rwanda. There is no third-party military which is occupying that country and they aren't at war with anyone of consequence; therefore, the only thing keeping Rwanda from becoming a regional leader in education, medicine, technology, or some other field is Rwanda...or, more specifically, the leaders of Rwanda, who spend their day acting like warlords and engaging in corruption the likes of which we haven't seen here in over 100 years.

Why should they bother, though, when they can just wait for the UN to bring them stuff that other countries pay for? Being a charitable giver to your neighbors is a fine thing and a worthy goal to which to aspire, but past a certain point helping out your less-fortunate neighbor becomes a hindrance--if they have come to rely on your help so much that they are essentially helpless without you then you have actually done more harm than good. This logic applies both to individuals and to nations.

We didn't sit around as a very young nation and wait on the benevolence of older, more developed nations--we had to struggle through and claw our way up on our own. If we can do it then so can others...so it's about damned time they start trying.
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Post by Wosbald »

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'Namibia does not recognize Jerusalem as Israeli capital'
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Windhoek -- Namibia has strongly condemned American President Donald Trump's decision late last years to officially recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, saying it is aimed at altering the character, status and demographic composition of the City of Jerusalem.

The Minister of International Relations and Cooperation, Netumbo Nandi-Ndaitwah said such attempts continue to violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination and independence.

"We continue to call for the full implementation of all relevant UN Resolutions on Western Sahara and Palestine and reiterate our commitment to the two-state solution with East Jerusalem as the Capital of the State of Palestine," said Nandi-Ndaitwah, who also serves as the Deputy Prime Minister.

She said this while motivating her ministry's budget in parliament last week. ...

[...]

She said Namibia's commitment to the inherent right of people's self-determination and independence influences the country's foreign policy.

This is why, she said, Namibia would continue to steadfastly speak out against the occupation of Western Sahara and Palestine, because we have lived it, and have felt the dehumanisation that comes with it.


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Post by Kizza »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote: .....................
We didn't sit around as a very young nation and wait on the benevolence of older, more developed nations--we had to struggle through and claw our way up on our own. If we can do it then so can others...so it's about damned time they start trying.[/color]
There are a thousand holes in that argument in terms of individual atrocity by geography and history native to those places (hell the US rose as a financial powerhouse on the back of European spending in WW1), but that is me deep diving rather than keeping on point.
The UN as a tool, can be used by all nations as a place to consult on issues for progress (a global partnership for development). If Rwanda cant get off the canvas that is not the UNs fault. If Rwanda could go to a forum like a UN, where the majority if not all world countries were members, then their issues may be heard and sustainable help delivered.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The US rising as an economic power because of European spending was not something someone else gave to us out of charity.

I never excuse past atrocities--people in the past did what they did and history needs to be told exactly as it happened. That being said, I didn't do any of those things so I never feel guilt over them.

I agree--if Rwanda cannot climb the ladder that is not the UN's fault--it is Rwanda's fault.

No one ever has to look for peace. Peace between nations is the default condition when they are treating each other with respect and as equals. Peace gets interrupted only when people look for war.
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Post by Skyweir »

Agreed Kizza and that is exactly what the UN was created for. If decisions can be made by majority vote and get united support .. that is using the UN the way it was intended.

The problem is the security council .. imo

Cail if a sovereign nation is party to a majority decision of course they should be held to that. Its the most fundamental principle of agreements and contracts. And why shouldnt a nation state be held to what they agree to doing 🤷‍♀️

The world is increasingly shrinking and global community isnt an abstract paradigm any longer.
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Post by Kizza »

There is no charity in war. But lets face the fact that the stock exchange moved from London to New York on the back of being isolated from the conflict.
No need for guilt on past failings, but guilt for repeating the mistakes would be warranted wouldn't it?
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Yes, which is why we don't do the things we used to do.
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Post by Kizza »

Bwahahahahaahahahahahahaha :hithead: :D
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

Please--point out where we are engaging in the wholesale slaughter of native populations and where we are engaging in slavery. I'll wait.

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Post by Kizza »

What about WMD and Chemical warfare?
I MIGHT wait.
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Post by Avatar »

Hashi Lebwohl wrote:

I agree--if Rwanda cannot climb the ladder that is not the UN's fault--it is Rwanda's fault.
Rwanda is actually doing pretty well.

One of the fastest growing economies in Central Africa, Rwanda notched up GDP growth of around 8% per year between 2001 and 2014.

The International Monetary Fund expects the economy to slow down this year and pick up in 2018, forecasting around 6% growth in 2016 compared with 6.9% last year.

The country reduced the percentage of people living below the poverty line from 57% in 2005 to 45% in 2010.

Life expectancy, literacy, primary school enrollment and spending on healthcare have all improved.

Rwanda has also made big strides towards gender equality - almost 64% of parliamentarians are women, compared to just 22% worldwide - which has enabled women in the country to make economic advances.

Currently around 83% of Rwanda's population of 10.5 million live in rural areas and more than 70% of the population still work in subsistence farming. But the government, led by President Paul Kagame, wants to change this.

In the long term, the government aims to transform Rwanda from a low-income agriculture-based economy to a knowledge-based, service-oriented economy with a middle-income status by 2020.
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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

The United States is not using chemical warfare and you know it. That is simply ridiculous.

I did say that I chose Rwanda at random--I wasn't trying to single them out as if they were a case of abject failure. I could have chosen Peru just as easily, or Estonia, or wherever else.

Anyway...back on track re: Jerusalem....at some point, remind me to care what Namibia thinks about our embassy location.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Kizza wrote:What about WMD and Chemical warfare?
I MIGHT wait.
I'm trying to recall when the US used CBR weapons since WWII, and it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps you can remind me.....
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Post by Kizza »

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Kizza wrote:What about WMD and Chemical warfare?
I MIGHT wait.
I'm trying to recall when the US used CBR weapons since WWII, and it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps you can remind me.....
It was not about pointing to when you used them, it is about evidencing the learning from lessons where the two were used as an excuse to go to war.
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Post by Wosbald »

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Why Israel's independence day should not be a religious holiday
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Israeli youth celebrate Yom Ha'atzmaut in Jerusalem. 'It's a Jewish celebration ... that really only creates space for a certain type of Jew.' Photograph: Lior Mizrahi/Getty Images


This move turns celebrating Yom Ha'atzmut into a political act. There should be no right or wrong way to be Jewish


[...]

In this process of introspection, however, the Jewish community must also ask itself some difficult questions. This Yom Ha'atzmaut -- the date in the Jewish calendar that marks Israel's declaration of independence some 70 years ago -- there's never been more urgency to have one particular debate. Because, while Corbyn's decision to attend the Jewdas seder dragged a conversation our community has long had in private into the spotlight, the divides it exposed in our community are nothing new. How do we navigate the relationship between Israel and Judaism in diaspora communities? A resolution is long overdue.

For many Jewish people, Yom Ha'atzmaut is a day of celebration -- an annual opportunity to affirm their support to a Jewish homeland as it currently stands. For others, however, it feels exclusionary -- a holiday now being enshrined in the Jewish calendar that takes religion into the arena of divisive politics, not faith. In many synagogues on Wednesday night and Thursday, guest speakers will have been invited to talk about Israel and its significance, and Israeli flags will have been pinned to the walls as a night of dancing, food and merriment ensued. The prayer for the state of Israel will be read, as it is on a weekly basis. It's a Jewish celebration held in the same regard as Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Memorial Day), but one that really only creates space for a certain type of Jew.

It's all well and good to say you can be critical of the state of Israel without being antisemitic -- and for those on all sides of the political spectrum it's a mantra that should be repeated. But if we ourselves can't distinguish between our religion and what is, even if widely supported, a political ideology, I can't help but wonder how others will be able to. A nationalistic celebration of a modern state leaves little room for nuance.

[...]


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Post by Hashi Lebwohl »

For the sake of clarification, that date is 14 May or 5 Iyer on the Hebrew calendar.
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Post by Rawedge Rim »

Kizza wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote:
Kizza wrote:What about WMD and Chemical warfare?
I MIGHT wait.
I'm trying to recall when the US used CBR weapons since WWII, and it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps you can remind me.....
It was not about pointing to when you used them, it is about evidencing the learning from lessons where the two were used as an excuse to go to war.
I believe that technically at least, the US not only has the right to pursue war if another nation uses CBR weapons, but the obligaton to do so to ensure that the offending nation never does so again.
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Post by Cail »

Rawedge Rim wrote:
Kizza wrote:
Rawedge Rim wrote: I'm trying to recall when the US used CBR weapons since WWII, and it just doesn't come to mind. Perhaps you can remind me.....
It was not about pointing to when you used them, it is about evidencing the learning from lessons where the two were used as an excuse to go to war.
I believe that technically at least, the US not only has the right to pursue war if another nation uses CBR weapons, but the obligaton to do so to ensure that the offending nation never does so again.
Per the 1925 and 1997 agreements, that's correct.
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