Kevin's Watch

Avatar wrote:Come to terms with it.

--A

I like your second answer (in blue) better Av.

--A

I don't know what statistics would tell us. I assume some atheists would kill themselves in that scenario. I assume some would gain great strength from that new insight, and be able to improve their lives to some degree. And I assume there are at least several other reactions.

I guess the point that I was trying to make with this scenario is that in the face of the unceasing suffering that is many peoples only experience of life (for like it or not, there are those for whom life is not a gift, it is a burden to endure), the atheist position has little to offer. At least with the 'Idealist' position there is the possibility that such suffering may not just be a futile waste of time - that there may at least be some purpose to it, however remote or undecipherable it may seem. So many of our fundamentalist atheists seem, these days to be self-satisfied in the knowledge that they can take the wonder of thier existence from thier daily lives. They seem to forget that this is a luxury not afforded to many.

Nah, they just find wonder in different ways. They still are fascinated by the biological complexities of animals, the stars in the heaven, etc. The lack of a god does not lessen their awe, nor does it mean they are not without ideals. Some might even set out to do good for the sake of being good, which makes them feel better/superior to those who do good because if they don't, God will send them to hell.

peter wrote:Question :- What does the doctrine of atheism prescribe as the best course of action for you.

I'm not sure an atheist and a religious person would have any different response. Both are animals with a strong self survival instinct. Both make up and embrace philosophical constructs to make them feel safe, secure, et cetera. Both will rationalise their continued existence in some way.

Many people of faith have lived the kind of terrible life you describe. And I'm sure many have killed themselves in despair. Heck, a local priest jumped off a bridge when he found out he was dying of cancer. It seems to me that some people have the ability to live with the horrors of schizophrenia, depression, or whatever, and many do so by focusing on something. Believers might focus on their faith. Atheists obviously don't, but they can focus on other things. How many masterpieces of literature, art, and music are the result of this kind of thing?

I might turn to cause and effect itself and consider such things as a butterfly flapping it's wings in Shanghai - after all,

Partake my confidence! No creatures made so mean
But that, some way it boasts, could we investigate
Its supreme worth; fulfils by ordinance of fate
Its momentary task, Gets glory all its own.
Tastes triumph in the world, pre-eminant alone.
Where is that single grain of sand 'mid millions heaped
Confusedly on the beach, but, did we know has leaped
Or will leap, would we wait i'the century some once,
To the very throne of things?

(Robert Browning - Fifine at the fair)

Think about it like this, peter: Atheists are just as confounded by theists as theists are about atheists. Here's a couple viewpoints to illustrate:

Mr. Theist: I don't understand how atheists can live with their beliefs when life is tough and miserable... what's the point if there is no point?

Mr. Atheist: I don't understand how theists, understanding that life is tough and miserable, will purposefully go out of their way to make their lives tougher and more miserable just because they want a 'point'.

Me: Meowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeowmeow

Well, I'm not a non-believer because of any logic or anything anyway. I simply don't feel any deity, or anything supernatural. It's not a decision I made. There's simply nothing in me along those lines.

And the idea that any belief system offers something that might help me in some particular scenario doesn't put belief into me. It's not an argument for belief at all. That is, it's not one that has any bearing on the matter for me.

I would think, since atheists believe that there is no life after death, they would logically arrive a t the conclusion that nonexistence is referable to "anguished" existence. If every moment was such a horror, a burden of pain and misery, and there were no visibly bad consequences for killing yourself, why wouldn't you? Especially since, as the scenario seemed to indicate, you have no one. If you had someone who cared, simple guilt might hold you back. But with no one, and nothing they enjoy...
Why not?

Sounds logical to me. I personally have no problem with it.

--A

Well, I have an issue just because, since you can't be sure until you are dead if the religious people are right, then you can't be sure you aren't unwittingly damning yourself to a hell you didn't know existed. It's the possibility that gets you. I don't feel like burning because I thought they were wrong. But,that doesn't mean I agree with them, either. It just means I'm willing to admit for the speculative possibility that all those people aren't wrong. Maybe. Maybe.

But you're only considering one specific set of beliefs. What if it's the Hindus who are right, and you'd better adopt their beliefs just in case. Or maybe it's the Australian Aborigines who are right. Or maybe the Vikings. Our something we don't know about yet.

Exactly. Life's too short to worry about what's going to happen next. If I'm wrong and there is something, well, I'm not going to have much choice in the matter.

And it seems specious to me to "believe" just because I might be wrong.

--A

True. I wouldn't believe just in case. But I also wouldn't want to commit sins in every religion, you know? I mean, just 'cause hindus won't eat cows doesn't mean I'll stop. But almost every religion says something about how adultery is wrong, or wait to have sex until you are married. Can that many people really be mistaken? So, I won't do it, just in case. Unbelief may be forgiven, but sins and unbelief might be harder to talk your way out of you know?

Yes, that many people can be mistaken. I have no problem with sex before marriage.

OTOH, I think adultry is wrong. Not because I think it's a sin, or because many believe it's wrong. It's because I gave my word not to do it.

It just seems like wariness won't really cost you anything. Caution won't kill, so why not? Always been my view.

I don't bother with any of that stuff. I live my life as best I can, according to principles I've decided on. If anything out there doesn't like it, that's it's problem.

(Well said Fist. And agreed on all counts FWIW.)

--A

Fist and Faith wrote:Or maybe the Vikings.

Maybe?? Just maybe??? definitely the vikings are right.