Kevin's Watch

Astavyastataa Kadna wrote:

O-gon-cho wrote:

Astavyastataa Kadna wrote:Posted my contest entry!!

LOL!!

Why does this entry not take me by surprise?

:::that is Rusty, isn't it?:::

LOL

yes .. the Dog of Destruction is ... had to find a picture of him NOT smiling ... he silly grin isn't very terrifying! LOL

He is a cutie in the few photos I've seen!

Astavyastataa Kadna wrote:The other pic is of the Worlds Ugliest Dog! LOL

:::gasp:::

Oh! I did not mean to imply the other one was Rusty...

Allright guys, in the past few days the fallout from Lore's decision has been heavy, especially privately. I've had at least two players suggesting they'd withdraw from the game too because they felt they were to blame for what happened, and they thought this would be a way to apologize to him.

Please stop this. I understand you're feeling bad about Lore's decision, and I would lie if I said I'm not feeling the same way, but it's not your fault, and leaving the game won't solve anything. Blaming yourselves won't solve anything! If you feel you have played a part in Lore's choice, then learn the lesson, accept what has happened, and move on: I know it sounds callous, but that's really the only thing that can be done. Feeling guilty doesn't help; leaving the game doesn't help; blaming yourself doesn't help. Lore's choice was his alone: he could have decided to remain and play, and he still had a chance to succeed, despite the betrayal. So it's his own choice: you cannot and should not be held accountable for it.

If anything, learn the important lesson that it's important to distinguish between character and player: this is a GAME, after all. It's not life, it's not a substitute for life. Next time you talk privately and want to share secrets, take a deep breath and decide whether you're sharing with the other PLAYER or the other CHARACTER; if you receive these revelations, make sure you know whether they're for you or your CHARACTER. Next time you want to do something momentous which will hurt another player's deity, talk with me BEFORE doing it, so I can give advice. Better yet, talk with the other player, and see if you can organize everything so that both of you are content!

Now please, I understand this is difficult but Lore's choice cannot be changed, except by himself, and leaving the game yourselves - or feeling to blame for days - won't accomplish anything except making you all feel worse, and Lore as well.

I'll repeat myself: this is a GAME! It's not worth feeling horrible for! Otherwise, I might as well shut it down! What do you say?

:::accepting reprimand:::

Yes AllFather...

I agree as well.

i don't feel responsible. (this time anyway!!!)



(just trying to enject a bit of levity here.)

I don't know for sure what it was that caused Lore to leave, but what has been said has made me think quite a bit about my own behaviour, and how it seems to pretty closely match the issues mentioned.
I guess I get a little too involved sometimes. Back at the start of this turn, I had an out-of-character exchange with Lore, and I told him I didn't intend to act against him in the near future (at the time, I didn't. Though I wasn't being completely fair to him either--I'd just finished acting against him, in a way that would take time to have effect). And then I went and started planning a big action that I expected to seriously damage Nor Yekith. A particular course of action occured to me that would--I thought--stop an attack by him, hurt him badly, and do both in a way that neither violated Law nor actually required Maeror to attack him. I got so caught up in how smart I thought I was being that I didn't think much about the player involved, and I justified it to myself by saying I wasn't actually acting against Nor, just setting up a way for him to harm himself. Which is bullshit, in hindsight. And stupid, given what I'd said to Lore. Like I said, I got too involved and carried away with it--which isn't much of an excuse.
Like I've said already, I don't know if this was what caused Lore to quit, but even if it wasn't, what I did was just as bad as whatever else it could be.

To be honest, I'm not sure if I really can play a game like this without letting myself get carried away with it, without 'playing to win'. I don't know if I can help it. And it's probably not fair on others that I think like that. I'm really not sure what to do, after all this.

murrin, and anyone else who is feeling a bit guilty here,

as xar has repeatedly said, this is a game. EVERYone is playing to win.
even Lore was playing with an agenda. he had plans. his plans were foiled. thats what it comes down to.

that is the way games are played.

i myself have gotten overly caught up in the emotional stuff that happens in this kind of game and had to be reminde SEVERAL times that its just a game and no harm or ill intent is meant toward the players.

don't take this on murrin. we're ALL playing.

Loremaster will make his choices and decisions on his own. you need not feel responsible.

NO ONE need feel responsible. its not that big a deal. if Lore quits, we will continue on.

I believe the only way to play the game honestly is to treat player and character as one. We all know who all the other players are, and we cannot possibly ignore things about them when we try to figure out what the character will do. And it doesn't seem likely that we will stop talking OOC, whether IM or email or pm. If Lore had ever told another player about Yek's intentions, and that player's character was not in danger, that player would be a fool to ignore it.

As for saying you won't hurt him, then doing it, even if in a very sneaky way... Hey! That's the Game!! If I view something Maeror did to me as a betrayal of some sort, I would certainly factor that into my future dealings with Maeror. You reap what you sow, so be careful what you sow.

exactly. or REAP THE WHIRLWIND!!! heh.

Yeah, well that's the thing at the minute. I don't think I want to be the one who automatically tries to wriggle out of every little thing. But that's how I've been playing, and it's hard to stop that kind of behaviour once it's just become habit to do it.


Luci--It's not about feeling guilty or responsible--it's about me rethinking my own behaviour.


[There I go again, saying something completely the wrong way. Edited.]

Well, wriggle all you want. Speaking only for myself, of course, if my character isn't harmed, it's darned unlikely I'll have a problem. If my character is harmed, it's darned likely I'll try to prevent it from happening again.

As for the "big action" you were planning, there's not a damned thing wrong with it. Yek's problem with it would have been his own fault. There's no moral gray area in it.

There wouldn't be anything wrong with it--If I hadn't told Lore I wasn't going to act against him. I might not technically have betrayed his trust, I might not have actually intended it that way, but I still don't feel right about it.
And everything I try to say today seems to come out wrong, or I say something different to what I mean. You're right about the wriggling--it's Maeror's character. It's not the wriggling that's bothering me (once again, I was reaching for the easy answer), it's how I handled out-of-character things the same way.

I think I understand what you're saying. But my feeling that the only way to play is to treat player and character as one entity takes care of it. If what you planned to do could be considered an act against Yek (and what I know of your plan couldn't be), then Lore would have known that Murrin saying Maeror will or won't act a certain way doesn't mean Maeror will or won't act that way. So Murrin's future statements about Maeror would be taken with a grain of salt. Those who do not get bad info from Murrin about Maeror will likely trust Murrin's future info, and those who do get bad info won't. What else can we do?

-OOC-

I admit this being the first RPG I have ever taken part in that I have had trouble from the start with IC and OOC communications. I thought I had gotten much better at separating the two, but have had recent reminders that perhaps not.

I ask all of you to please let me know if I get carried away in anyway right away. I am OK at accepting criticism, honestly. Some might even say I take it to heart too well. Please don't keep anything I may say or do that offends you from me. I need to learn.

I fully understand, Xar.

I know it's difficult for everyone, but please do not blame yourselves. We are all adults (hopefully ) and that means if someone makes a choice, he or she hopefully makes it knowing the possible consequences. What happened with Lore was a fluke, but these things cannot be accounted for, and it's much more constructive to see what lesson can be learned from this and move on, than to lose oneself in guilt (which doesn't benefit anyone, Lore least of all).

Trust me, this is as hard on me as it is on all of you - harder, even, because I have to deal not only with Lore's choice, but also with trying to help all of you who come to me for advice or for venting out their feelings. But this, too, is a choice I willingly and consciously made when I started the game, so I don't flinch from it, because I have a responsibility towards the game and towards all of you. Likewise, you all have responsibilities towards each other - and as players, you should use this situation as a way to come together, rather than drift apart. I'm glad to see that many of you are doing just that.

All these "AllFathers" here and there must be getting to me, 'cause I'm proud of you people

Now, then, on to plan B...

I go away for a week...

A few semi-random thoughts on stuff:

Alignment. Call me a sap, but I believe most people are good, and 99.99% of people think they're good, at least so far as it concerns their actions. So naturally, most of the powerful anthropomorphic creations (gods) are going to follow suit.

Evil is exploitative. It will look for the weakness in others to gain advantage. And since everything and everyone has a weakness, it will always find something. Because of this, evil is more effective (this is actually the root of satanism). You get immediate results with evil. Turning the other cheek may benefit society, but striking back gives instant satisfaction.

Despite this, good is still stronger than evil. Afterall, we don't live in a society where murder, rape, and theft are the norm. Why? Because eventually good bands together against that which is harmful. Collectively, good is stronger.

Why should that be any different here?

Xar, if you want a level playing field - The way I'm thinking, though, would take a lot of worldbuilding (which would take out a large part of what makes Pantheon fun). Set up two Allfather-type deities that are at war (played by you, to ensure that they work together to maintain balance). Assign each player to one of those deities. That way, good, evil, and neutral gods would be forced to work together against other good, evil, and neutral gods. This would also allow us 'good' gods to do a little well-deserved and much-desired smiting. What good's being a god if you can't smite?

I really don't know what the deal with Lore/Nor is. Until I know more, I really have no interest in speculatng. Lore, you'll be missed as a player, but if you leave it just makes me a bigger dog (like the smartest kid in the class dropping, it gives us all a better curve).

I know I've certainly used outside information in playing the game. Any player who is here to compete would. I mean, if you know your opponent usually opens with the queen's gambit, wouldn't you plan a counter-strategy against it? If you know the other team's coach has a new play, you don't just ignore it until you see it on the field. *shrug*

Simjen wrote:I go away for a week...

I knew you'd say that when I saw you had posted.

Simjen wrote:What good's being a god if you can't smite?

I swear, if I didn't already have a sig...

Lucimay wrote:as xar has repeatedly said, this is a game. EVERYone is playing to win.
even Lore was playing with an agenda. he had plans. his plans were foiled. thats what it comes down to.

I'm sorry, but I never played this game to win. From day one I told a number of people - you can ask Waddley or Xar to confirm this - that I never played to win. I played to play Nor Yekith. The game was a roleplaying game for me, or more importantly, I believed that I was co-creating a world and a story with all of you. I never wanted Nor to conquer the world.

Simjen wrote:I go away for a week...

Welcome back brother.