Kevin's Watch

Prebe wrote:

Menolly wrote:My hope is Beorn will some day face such concerns with as much seriousness and consideration as you showed.

My hope is, that Beorn won't have to worry about other peoples religious feelings, but will make his own choice, and be accepted by his family and friends no matter what.

(and I'm sure that you, of all people, will make that possible Menolly)

*sigh*

I talk a good game Prebe, but when it comes to the continuation of Judaism in my family tree I have been cursed at by many on the Jewish Parenting boards I frequent. As an adherant to the matrilineal descent practice, I am totally hypocritical in my belief that Beorn may only marry a Jewish girl, whether born Jewish or halahically converted, even though I myself am intermarried.

I know, I know. This is so not my basic nature. But the indoctrination into such beliefs is still very strong in me. I already know that should Beorn not marry and have children with a Jewish girl, that I will be saying Kaddish for him for a year before I make ammends with his wife and family, should they then allow me into their lives.

...and I wouldn't blame them in the least if they didn't...

*donning flame suit*

*hugs menolly*

As much as I disagree with you, I have to take my hat off to your honesty.

Break the pattern, and don't let anyone else tell you what to do. Let your son decide, using whatever tools you have given him. AND RESPECT HIS DECISSION. You gave him the tools, and I'm sure they are good.

*sniff*

Thanks Prebe. But, this is one decision I can not change.

My sister is childless, my mother's sister allowed her Catholic husband to decide her son's religion, my mother's brother, a Kohain no less, married a Catholic woman (who is a wonderful aunt to me, don't get me wrong), and my father's family has similar situations. Out of five children of my parents generation, the only one with any chance of continuing our Jewish line, even though he can not claim the High Priesthood line of my maternal family line, is Beorn. I can't not be involved here. It's too important to me.

With all due respect (and I really MEAN that, it's not just a figure of speech): Why should ANYTHNG matter more to you than your sons personal spousal selection?

How far would you go? I can understand it if you try to explain to him, how much it means to you, that he continues the line. But where is the line between free spousal selection and arranged mariage in your view?

(edited to correct forgotten/superflous double consonant. I HATE THEM!)

Prebe wrote:With all due respect (and I really MEAN that, it's not just a figure of speech): Why should ANYTHNG matter more to you than your sons personal spousal selection?

How far would you go? I can understand it if you try to explain to him, how much it means to you, that he continues the line. But where is the line between free spousal selection and arranged mariage in your view?

(edited to correct forgotten/superflous double consonant. I HATE THEM!)

*biting lip*

Keep in mind arranged marriages are still very much a part of strictly observant Judaism. The matchmaker still makes a very good living in halahic communities...

However, I readily admit I am not strictly observant, and am intermarried myself. But I made this choice when my sister decided to be childless, and that was many years ago. Of course Hyperception thinks I'm insane when it comes to this subject as well...

If he doesn't totally rebel, and decides to being home girls for our approval, he will understand he needs to only date Jewish girls so the posibility of falling in love with a non-Jew is lessened. Of course, I am expecting my heart to be broken regarding this, but I will not help him in not marrying a Jewish girl by appearing to support whatever choice he makes. I just can't.

I understand you Menolly. And I respect your (conditioned) silent protest, even if I do not agree. Had you said anything about ACTIVELY interfering, it would have been a different game in my opinion though.

As I said, you gave him the tools. All you can hope for is that he uses them correctly. Nobody would demand that you cheered on an application of the tools that was wrong in your opinion.

The main thing is, that you - albeit somewhat grudgingly - would accept your sons decission.

I say again, you are a loveable and pragmatic person menolly.

Edit: Pragmatic is a compliment comming from me

I would eventually accept his decision, Prebe. I would not attend his wedding, and I would be in mourning as if he was totally dead for eleven months while I said Kaddish. I'm bawling right now thinking about it. I seriously doubt any woman who chooses him will agree to let me back into their life after that.

But, the indoctrination of me regarding this is very solid. And it is my intent to pass it on. Not something I am proud to admit in the liberal circles I steadfastly belong to. But we all have our skeletons, no?

Candor, artlessness, directness, fairness, forthrightness, frankness, guilelessness, honesty, impartiality, ingenuousness, openness, outspokenness, probity, simplicity, sincerity, straightforwardness, truthfulness, unequivocalness, uprightness, veracity:

All of thy names art Menolly

It's just one of the many strange things religion does to people....

...seriously weeping now...

Prebe, I don't know what I ever did to deserve your kind thoughts towards me. I have seen you argue your POV ceaselessly towards others. And I know you totally disagree with my stance on this. Heck, if it was for anyone else, I would disagree with my stance on this.

Thanks.

Menolly: My kind thoughts to you are very much due to the fact, that you admit that your proposed actions are due to indoctrination. The very fact that you admit it, means that you might raise your son to (re)act differently.



*Sheds a wee tear too*

Prebe wrote:Menolly: My kind thoughts to you are very much due to the fact, that you admit that your proposed actions are due to indoctrination. The very fact that you admit it, means that you might raise your son to (re)act differently.



*Sheds a wee tear too*

Awww man...

See, now comes the killer that gets me cursed on the Jewish Parenting boards.

If I had ever had my Aliyah, the little girl I so desperately wanted, while I would prefer she marry a Jewish man, I would not be so adamant with her. Why? Because even if she converted, following matrilineal descent guidelines, her children would still be considered Jewish. So I would allow her a freer choice. Just like I myself took. Twice...

You know, the deeper I go into this, the more I hate myself for it. It really is an indoctrinated, sick, POV. But, I am committed to it and will not change. And as I said earlier, I intend to pass the indoctrination on.

..unless I just totally crumble if/when it actually does come to pass...

Menolly wrote:It really is an indoctrinated, sick, POV. But, I am committed to it and will not change. And as I said earlier, I intend to pass the indoctrination on.

I respect you for a lot of things, but don't expect me to respect you for that.

Menolly wrote: ..unless I just totally crumble if/when it actually does come to pass...

*crossing fingers vigourously*

Prebe wrote:

Menolly wrote:It really is an indoctrinated, sick, POV. But, I am committed to it and will not change. And as I said earlier, I intend to pass the indoctrination on.

I respect you for a lot of things, but don't expect me to respect you for that.

Fair enough.

Prebe wrote:

Menolly wrote: ..unless I just totally crumble if/when it actually does come to pass...

*crossing fingers vigourously*

Love ya anyway, Prebe.

Again, thanks for backing off. I really am terrible at debate, and was very nervous when I initially posted about this.

*huffing and puffing* How does one keep up with you all?

Auleliel, please forgive the misunderstanding, it is not my intent to offend you. I have a tendency to offend people of the Catholic faith, not because I make untrue generalizations about their dogmatic and indoctrinal beliefs, but because it is very difficult not to tell the
truth about the Catholic faith without offending someone. My stance on the current Pope has little or nothing to do with the politics of Catholicism, which have always been a bit totalitarian. (As I said in my last post, his declaration was nothing new, it has been the Church's stance for 2000 years. It's only in the last 600 or so years that the Church has had any christian "opposition".)

Also please understand that I will not be entering into any debates about the catholic faith. There is simply no point. I have no desire to offend you, and therefore I cannot even defend my post very well, but I can tell you that I have a degree in theological studies, and that my final paper was called "Debunking the Mysticism of Catholicism: An Overview of Paganism's Influence on Christianity", and that any and all of my paper was based on historical fact.

My former roomate, and a good friend of mine once asked me why I hated Catholicism so much. I replied that I didn't hate it; I found it fascinating. Moreso that Catholicism is often viewed by theologians as a hereditary religion. It's doctrines are often determined by whim or circumstance (such as our only female Pope, how many of you know about that one?), and its popularity seems rooted in familial cultures (Spanish, Italian, Irish etc). Nonetheless, it is the culture of ignorance that Catholicism breeds which I hate. Point out a few historically accurate points and hostility ensues. (not because they're not true, but because most catholics never have a clue about it. After all, who points out thier own faith's follies?)

Things in the Close have been really nice for awhile now, and I'd like to avoid the flaming zephs we once endured, which is why I usually stay silent when catholic discussions are in play. (The exception this time was based on an argument about respecting the beliefs of others, which I fully support; another reason I usally stay out of catholic debate.) And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying any other christian faith is more accurrate than yours either. Just that in order to defend your faith, one must be able to defend the good with the bad, otherwise what moral right do any of us have to tout them so?

I have simply found too many things wrong with Catholicism for my own peace of mind. What you choose to believe in your life is your own right, as what I believe is mine.

-B[/i]

Baradakas wrote:*Things in the Close have been really nice for awhile now...[/i]

You mean they've been really quiet for a while now...

--A

LMAO! Not only that but I put zeph's instead of posts! I swear, that was done unconciously! Or perhaps subconciously.

I thought it was deliberate.

--A

Menolly wrote:That thought sits ill with me though. How can one forgive sin, having come from Man themself, if they do not know it themselves?

*I'm not phrasing that well...sorry*

Well, Jesus doesn't forgive sin, God does. Its through Jesus' sacrifice that God can forgive our sin. Jesus knows sin, b/c on the cross He took on the sins of the world. Its why He cried "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Besides, I've never murdered, does that make me any less qualified to describe it, or forgive someone of it? And I'm just a dumb human, imagine if I were the Son of God.

Cybrweez wrote:Besides, I've never murdered, does that make me any less qualified to describe it, or forgive someone of it? And I'm just a dumb human, imagine if I were the Son of God.

But, it's a matter of degrees. I have never murdered either, but from the experience of the sins I have done, the magnitude of committing murder is all the more intense. How would I comprehend it as I do without knowing the remorse or whatever I feel from having done the sins I have?

I know, JC and Mary are divine. But, it still sits ill with me.

*shrug*

Cybrweez wrote:

Menolly wrote:That thought sits ill with me though. How can one forgive sin, having come from Man themself, if they do not know it themselves?

*I'm not phrasing that well...sorry*

Well, Jesus doesn't forgive sin, God does. Its through Jesus' sacrifice that God can forgive our sin. Jesus knows sin, b/c on the cross He took on the sins of the world. Its why He cried "My God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Besides, I've never murdered, does that make me any less qualified to describe it, or forgive someone of it? And I'm just a dumb human, imagine if I were the Son of God.

Yes, it does. Since you have never murdered, I cannot be sure that you have the capability to preform the act, therefore I cannot be sure you grok the sin. In Stranger and a Strange Land there is a section where Michael praises the Catholic Church for its corps of Confessors, saying something to the effect of 'A sin is only a sin when you believe it is, and there is nothing more terrifying than giving someone cofession, and sharing their sin.'

Something I have always failed to explain to my mother, yet others, like my father, have understood, is that there is next to no difference between capacity to commit a sin and the sin itself. Though I have never (legally) been responsible for the death of another human being, in knowing that I am capable of causing the death of another, and for selfish reasons, I don't actually have to commit the crime -- I've already commited it a thousand times in my heart. And that just makes me sick when I think about it too much, so cheerio!