Kevin's Watch

Cail wrote:To put it bluntly Finn, Avatar treats its audience like morons. It spoon-feeds its message to them. "Shock and awe" (get it?). It shows zero respect for the audience. The same can be said for every other Cameron movie except for the other two I listed.

Alec Baldwin is about as liberal as they come. I happen to think he's one of the five, possibly three finest actors alive today. His work transcends his beliefs, and he doesn't politicize his roles (unlike, say, Sean Penn). I check my politics at the door when I enter a theater.

As I said in the post you responded to I really was not concerned with the message. I can't really say I disagree or dispute what you are saying above either, tho' for me AB whilst a very fine actor is not really a favourite of mine and Sean Penn is equally good but does not inspire me one bit.

The message may be being delivered in a condescending manner addressing morons, but that is surely only important to you if the message is important to you: it was not to me!

I leave my politics behind at the theatre door too, I liked this film for the spectacle and really that alone. I came out from it (first time) and said to one of the people there with me, "That was Last Samurai you know!" but then talked about the colours and sound and visual spectacle and the way the flora and fauna seemed to be harmonious in design and concept etc, etc. Not once was the "message" mentioned then or the second time I went with differet people. I'd hazard a guess that the majority who went were not so far away from their appraisals as me and my friends were.

babybottomfeeder wrote:FICTION is not to be taken seriously!

I disagree.

Fiction can teach us great things about ourselves.

My main problem with Avatar has nothing to do with the story or the premise, and everything to do with its execution. After all, I thoroughly enjoyed Dances with Wolves; but that's because the writing, acting, and directing were all done well. Avatar, with the same premise and basic story, was like a 9 year old's version of the story. That kind of thing doesn't interest me any more.

Rigel wrote:

babybottomfeeder wrote:FICTION is not to be taken seriously!

I disagree.

I think Mr. Bottom Feeder was being sarcastic. *knowing wink*

finn wrote:The message may be being delivered in a condescending manner addressing morons, but that is surely only important to you if the message is important to you: it was not to me!

Absolutely untrue. I don't like being talked down to regardless of what's being said.

Cail wrote:

finn wrote:The message may be being delivered in a condescending manner addressing morons, but that is surely only important to you if the message is important to you: it was not to me!

Absolutely untrue. I don't like being talked down to regardless of what's being said.

Few of us do, for example being told something is untrue when in fact it is not untrue, just anothers preference....for me I'm happy to be selective about what I listen to. If a dessert is served full of pomposity by a chef flying native colours in the ice cream and moulding the chocolate to a national symbol, I'm still happy to enjoy the taste and screw the message.....this is not true or untrue, just the way I do it.

Cagliostro wrote:

dANdeLION wrote:

Cagliostro wrote:It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you.

That's not exactly true, and a few posts after the one you've mis-characterized, he expanded on his misgivings.

Actually, that's exactly true, and I've "mis-characterized" nothing. Here is his exact statement:

Zarathustra wrote:Saw Avatar today. I liked it. Plot didn't bother me too much, except that it was very simplistic.

So back off, man....

Don't tell me to back off. There's a clear difference between 'didn't bother me' and 'didn't bother me too much'. You back off.

finn wrote:I leave my politics behind at the theatre door too, I liked this film for the spectacle and really that alone.

I don't leave any part of myself at any door.

Rigel wrote:

FICTION is not to be taken seriously!

I disagree.

Fiction can teach us great things about ourselves.

Exactly. Especially fantasy. Besides, Ki and I have bounced around the idea of writing a screenplay together. I've been working on a fantasy novel for a number of years. Fiction can not only teach us about ourselves, it can teach us about the craft of fiction. I'm always over-analysing stories.

Cag wrote:It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you.

That's true. I still can't wait for the Blu-ray, just to soak up the beautfiul visuals again. I had fun watching it for the sheer wonder of the visual presentation.

But I don't have that now, sitting back and remembering it. Once the smoke and mirrors were gone, and all I have left is the story. Since I've had a chance to think about it, I view it differently. I didn't think very much about it at first. I was just overwhelmed with the experience. Talking about it has helped me to formulate my opinion. Don't you ever do that?

babybottomfeeder wrote:

Blackhawk wrote: I truly thought all Hollywood as a whole was liberal, I dont care about any of that, I Love the movie for its Graphics and the characters Expressive abilities they have overcome with CGI, and the Trees and wildlife were AWESOME...not to mention the depth of the 3D experience, but as for the simplistic views the movie portrays i have to agree it was simple, as for politics..it bores the hell out of me on both sides... Take both parties and slam their melons together so hard it knocks them both out and ahhhhhhhhhh... silence. now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously...

This is one of the greatest things I have ever read! Way 2 go :0. Blackhawk has hit on a secret few people know, FICTION is not to be taken seriously! Taking political messages from FICTION leads to a division of POLITICS. In order to get the true, non biased reality of the universe, one must turn to empirically true films like Milk and Frost/Nixon. These films were extracted from the sap of the Truth Berry Tree, where only true POLITICS exists. Once extracted, sap of the TBT (Truth Berry Tree to all you N00bs ) instantly turns into a roll of film which evaporates through the Pleasure Dome and into the projectors of all the Truth centers in the United States.


Bravo!

sarcasm..very nice... I'm glad i merit the creation of an account just to ridicule my post with one of your two faces, or is it three or four? point is that your being an ass over a Sci Fi movie post... whats the point? must be an underlying motivation rather than something i actually said here..

Bravo!!! Standing O for you tank dweller

Jeez, Dan, I can't tell if you are joking or not. Stupid intarwebs. I was jokingly saying to back off, which is why I put the winkie thingy.

And yes, Z, talking about movies also help me formulate my opinion. Which was the entire point of me saying what I said in the first email about all of this - that I did exactly the same thing with Titanic.

Am I misreading something here, or are people genuinely getting pissed at me about something totally innocent I said?

Cagliostro wrote:Am I misreading something here, or are people genuinely getting pissed at me about something totally innocent I said?

Some male posters apparently acquire PMS symptoms after a few years of using KW. Or maybe it's something to do with years of low-wave radiation from their comp.

But since this is all getting so serious--everyone--back off. Get away. *holds up a spear from Avatar, to keep on topic* Stay back!

Zarathustra wrote:

Cag wrote:It's funny you say all that Z, as after you first saw it, you said you liked it and the story didn't bother you.

That's true. I still can't wait for the Blu-ray, just to soak up the beautfiul visuals again. I had fun watching it for the sheer wonder of the visual presentation.

But I don't have that now, sitting back and remembering it. Once the smoke and mirrors were gone, and all I have left is the story. Since I've had a chance to think about it, I view it differently. I didn't think very much about it at first. I was just overwhelmed with the experience. Talking about it has helped me to formulate my opinion. Don't you ever do that?

Yeah, see. That was what I meant by my Titanic question--once the "glow" of it wore off and all. Seems to be happening for some folks--Avatar, that is (I know you like Titanic).

I truly thought all Hollywood as a whole was liberal, I dont care about any of that, I Love the movie for its Graphics and the characters Expressive abilities they have overcome with CGI, and the Trees and wildlife were AWESOME...not to mention the depth of the 3D experience, but as for the simplistic views the movie portrays i have to agree it was simple, as for politics..it bores the hell out of me on both sides... Take both parties and slam their melons together so hard it knocks them both out and ahhhhhhhhhh... silence. now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously...

Ha ha ha.

now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously..

I think perhaps you mistook "science FICTION" for "blockbuster popcorn flicks". Don't denigrate the entire reason for this board's existence (fiction in the SF&F genre) by implying that it should only ever be mindless entertainment.

(Just because the word "political" is involved doesn't make this different.)

Some good stuff here, not the least of which it is a launching point for other good stuff.

One thing you can say: when so much is written about something, that something probably isn't just a popcorn flick.

wayfriend wrote:One thing you can say: when so much is written about something, that something probably isn't just a popcorn flick.

Just in case this was directed at my above post: I wasn't attributing trhe label to Avatar specifically, more to what the post I quoted seemed to be saying it should be.

wayfriend wrote:Some good stuff here, not the least of which it is a launching point for other good stuff.

One thing you can say: when so much is written about something, that something probably isn't just a popcorn flick.

Nah. One side (which I'm on) is just trying to figure out why such a shallow film grossed so much money. Which, really, I know already. It was 3-Dee and purdy.

I guess as long as a film has lots of themes it's deep stuff. Or if a lot is written about it. Maybe, had any other film became the top-grossing in the world, people would be writing lots about it, just because of its top spot on the chart. Never mind if the themes themselves are about as broad as my dad's stomach after Thanksgiving, or if its handling of said themes are about as adroit as a dolphin trying to play lacrosse.

Murrin wrote:

now i can enjoy my sci fi flick.. when i want to see something political i will see Frost Nixon or Milk or something along those lines, but will never take the political views of something that is science FICTION and take it too seriously..

I think perhaps you mistook "science FICTION" for "blockbuster popcorn flicks". Don't denigrate the entire reason for this board's existence (fiction in the SF&F genre) by implying that it should only ever be mindless entertainment.

(Just because the word "political" is involved doesn't make this different.)

Hs Ha Ha...

I never said its mindless entertainment.. for everyone.. i just said that I me myself do not take to seriously the political messages i recieve from SCI FI movies, because there are plenty of movies based on true events for me to base my views on or i can just read the newspaper and read about all the bad things happening in the world. I enjoy sci fi flicks and Blockbuster popcorn flicks..(call it what you want) for Entertainment to get away from all of that other crap. I hope that clears things up for you, this is the Flicks board..not the sci fi flicks board, so for me to denigrate the entire board..thats taking it way to far..

(When I say the entire board, I'm referring to Kevin's Watch as a whole. A fan site for an SFF author.)


I'm sorry, it's just that when you use the very broad term of sci fi and say it shouldn't say anything relevant, that kinda ticks me off as a sci fi fan. Science fiction has been pushing boundaries and had a lot to say on all sorts of relevant social and political issues for as long as literature has existed.
Sometimes looking at a reality different from our own is the best way to highlight issues within ours.


This discussion isn't really about Avatar, so I'll leave it here. If you want to pick it up in the SFF forum, I'd be glad to join you there in a topic about this subject. (It'd be good to see another decent debate in that place for once.)

Cagliostro wrote:Jeez, Dan, I can't tell if you are joking or not.

Yeah, I was pulling a gag, accusing you of mis-characterization, while mis-characterizing you at the same time. What the hell, I figured it'd be more entertaining than going to see the movie.......

Murrin wrote:(When I say the entire board, I'm referring to Kevin's Watch as a whole. A fan site for an SFF author.)


I'm sorry, it's just that when you use the very broad term of sci fi and say it shouldn't say anything relevant, that kinda ticks me off as a sci fi fan. Science fiction has been pushing boundaries and had a lot to say on all sorts of relevant social and political issues for as long as literature has existed.
Sometimes looking at a reality different from our own is the best way to highlight issues within ours.


This discussion isn't really about Avatar, so I'll leave it here. If you want to pick it up in the SFF forum, I'd be glad to join you there in a topic about this subject. (It'd be good to see another decent debate in that place for once.)

The artwork i do and have uploaded to this site is in Honor of KW and SRD, that is my way of expressing how important the books are to me, in fact the only artwork i do is about the TCTC outside a few requests. Im a visual person so a movie like Avatar in 3D was an awesome experience for me.. thats all i was trying to say. as for debate im pretty bad at it so leave it to those better suited to do it.. debate always leaves me reaching for the Rolaids so i most often try to avoid it. on occasion I will visit the tank but i dont like chasing my tail so I have given that up.

This KW board is the only board im a member of, I consider the TCTC a different story, its one of the most meaningful stories i have read in my life and nothing really compares to it for me. there are a few but Movies for me are like extremely abridged versions of a story, I truly hate Abridged versions of anything so I take movies for the entertainment value and books I can read much more into. and if they ever make a movie for the TCTC..im am almost sure it will lack what i was able to pull from the books. I meant no offence to SRD in any way by that statement, or anyone else.

Murrin wrote:(When I say the entire board, I'm referring to Kevin's Watch as a whole. A fan site for an SFF author.)


I'm sorry, it's just that when you use the very broad term of sci fi and say it shouldn't say anything relevant, that kinda ticks me off as a sci fi fan. Science fiction has been pushing boundaries and had a lot to say on all sorts of relevant social and political issues for as long as literature has existed.
Sometimes looking at a reality different from our own is the best way to highlight issues within ours.

Reminds me of something someone used to say, that annoyed me; Dune is not science fiction, it's political because it has . . . politics. This is despite the fact that the book has a scientific basis, and it's central theme is not political but scientific.