Mosque at Ground Zero

[Damelon]

The point is that Muslims are forcing public institutions--government institutions which are available to all of us--to conform to their religious beliefs. If you're fine with that, then there's nothing else for you and I to say to each other on this issue. I'm right about the facts (which you haven't disputed; you've just said I have no right to my opinion on these facts). What I'm describing is indeed a FACT: Muslims move in an change our public/government practices to fit their religious beliefs. If you can't see that as a violation of church and state, then you're not trying hard enough. You're just making excuses.

I don't see where they are forcing anyone to have those practices at night.

Working it out meant getting the approval of school and district administrators and the blessings of players, parents and police. Then, there were the residents in the surrounding neighborhood, who would hear more noise and see the illuminated field. So he sent letters explaining the decision.

If the players (muslim and non-muslim) parents (muslim and non-muslim), police, and the neighborhood think it's ok, who are you to tell them it's not? That you are a taxpayer? Don't forget that they are also. They are not teaching Islam in those practices, they are teaching football. They are voluntarily agreeing to this so some can practice safely.

[Zarathustra]

Are you suggesting that defending someone who happens to be Muslim is the same as defending someone because they are Muslim?

Which "someone" are you talking about? I haven't seen you defend any specific person. Besides, there have been plenty of defenses of Muslims and Islam in this thread.

If not... then this thread being about Muslims makes no difference to the point I am making.

The point you were making was about multiculturalism, not about a specific "someone." So clearly you were making a point about the culture in question.

Does the culture of the religious right or the KKK ever get defended in the name of "multiculturalism?" Do liberals ever defend "someone" who just happens to be conservative or a member of the KKK? You can try to separate the religion from the people whom are being defended here all you want, but it doesn't remove the discrepancy in whom liberals usually end up defending (i.e. anyone who doesn't vote for Republicans).

As they said in West Wing, Islamic extremist is to Islamic as the KKK is to Christianity.

You're going to use a fictional show written by a bunch of liberals to tell us what Islam is? Ok.

It is not the extremists who are chopping off their daughters' genitalia, or stoning their wives/mother/daughters if they are caught outside without a male relative. While this does indeed seem extreme to us, this is mainstream for them. Islam is itself a religion of extremists. Just because they aren't all strapping bombs to their chest doesn't mean they aren't extreme in their views.

If I was them, I would want the world to know that I do not support such things.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? However, in the words of another Muslim (from a link Prebe gave in this thread):

Other Americans have spoken up against terrorism, but never before has this message come with such clarity from Muslims or Arabs. Muslims are the only ones who can resolve the problem of terror in Islam, and sadly until the founding of this Free Muslims, they were the only group who had not definitively spoken up against the use of terror.
...
"I place on the Islamic intellectuals and leaders of Islamic organizations part of the responsibility for [this phenomenon] of Islamic terrorism, as nearly all of them advocate violence, and repress anyone who casts doubts upon this. Naturally, every so often they have written about the love and peace of Islam – but they did so, at best, for purposes of propaganda and defense of Islam. Their basic position is that this religion was established by the sword, acts by the sword, and will triumph by the sword, and that any doubt regarding this constitutes a conspiracy against the Muslims."

This is a Muslim speaking about the mainstream of Islamic leadership, criticizing them for things that we Americans are too timid to admit. They know what their religion is all about, even if we're too fearful of seeming like intolerant bigots to point it out ourselves. It is a liberal myth that Islam is about peace, tolerance, and moderation. If you look at how it is actually practiced in the countries where nearly everyone is Muslim, this West Wing myth falls apart.

A Mosque at Ground Zero would demonstrate that many Muslims are as appalled by the horror as anybody else, and that they also mourn the deaths.

How in the world would it do that? The mosque is being built by a man who blamed America for 9/11!!! He doesn't abhor Muslim involvement in it! He abhors *our* complicity in it. I urge you to read this entire thread before commenting further. Your views expressed here are in dire need of a reality check!

But if it's a public school, is it not illegal to cancel a prom for religious reasons? As well it should be.

Whew, finally we can agree again. That was getting awkward.

How to stop that? It's not possible to force all people in the world to treat all others as equals. We can't stop men in the USA from beating their wives and girlfriends, even to death. How do we stop them from doing so in a culture where it's legal? Wish I knew. Or wish I was Superman or something.

Obviously, we can't force people in other countries to stop violating the rights of their women. But we can stop making excuses for it, and stop pretending that these people who do it are "moderates." And we can put our foot down and not accept a hint of it here in America.

There is tolerance ... and then there is just being an enabler or appeaser. We have to stop worrying so much about hurting the feelings of people who engage in such archaic, destructive, behaviors. We have to stop attacking those who point it out. Just because I don't tolerate a belief system which allows for the oppression of 100s of millions of people doesn't mean I'm intolerant.

Some people in this thread seem to see the word Muslim and start thinking about the terrorist under the bed.

That's a ridiculous caricature. I've provided evidence that the imam in question, the one building the mosque, has links to pro-terrorist groups. I'm not talking about imaginary threats under the bed. I'm talking about links to a pro-terrorist group (Muslim Brotherhood) which is providing weapons training and counter-espionage against the CIA and the FBI. Right here in the United States. Your caricature of the anti-mosque people is the only thing imaginary here.

I am seeing American citizens whom a lot of people want to strip of their fundamental Constitutional rights

No one is saying that we should strip them of their rights. I challenge you to provide a single quote--from this thread, or in the media--stating otherwise. Personally, I've said that I don't think the government should tell them what to do with private property (unless it's a zoning issue). I recognize their right to worship, I'm just expressing my distaste for it. Which is *my* Constitutional right.

I live in Michigan and unlike you my tax dollars DO go towards public schools in this state).

Third time I've had to say this: the school in question receives federal funds. My tax dollars DO go towards the school in that state.

[Fist and Faith]

Fist, didn't read your whole post, b/c I couldn't get past the comparison w/the KKK. One question, can you show me where Jesus fought a battle, conquered anyone, even lifted a weapon? Now, do the same for Muhammad, and get back to me.

I'm not talking about Jesus and Muhammad. I'm talking about most Christians and most Muslims. Most Christians do not think they should terrorize and murder, but the KKK does. Most Muslims do not think they should terrorize and murder, but the extremists who do things like 9/11 do. You go ahead and argue about how things got to this point, historical figures, etc etc. I don't care. I'm talking about the situation we are in now. Not all Muslims agree with what some Muslims did on 9/11. Many Muslims strongly oppose what was done on 9/11. Many Muslims are sad that many non-Muslims think of 9/11 when they hear the word Islam.

[Fist and Faith]

I urge you to read this entire thread before commenting further.

Nah. It's a lot more fun to be ignorant, and watch you blow a gasket in response.

[aliantha]

I live in Michigan and unlike you my tax dollars DO go towards public schools in this state).

Third time I've had to say this: the school in question receives federal funds. My tax dollars DO go towards the school in that state.

What percentage of your federal tax payment would you say goes to that specific school district, Z? We're probably talking pennies on the dollar, if not a fraction of a penny.

You're getting your knickers in a twist over a couple of pennies, max.

Now, how much of Duchess's federal and state tax money goes toward that specific school district? And she lives there, and understands the local climate in a way you can't possibly understand it because you don't live there. And she doesn't have a problem with this.

And this: I just re-read the story that started off this hoo-ha. Ramadan is a floating holiday. The last time it fell during football preseason was 30 years ago. Presumably it'll be another 30 years before this is an issue again. I mean, I didn't check the Islamic calendar, but it stands to reason that that would be the case -- Easter floats all over the place.

So what we have is essentially an accommodation for a once-in-a-generation religious event. An accommodation that everybody in the immediate neighborhood -- everybody who's directly affected by it -- has agreed is a good solution. An accommodation that's costing you, at most, a couple of pennies.

And you've ranted on about how it's ruining the very fabric of America for *how* many pages?

[Fist and Faith]

[aliantha]

I urge you to read this entire thread before commenting further.

Nah. It's a lot more fun to be ignorant, and watch you blow a gasket in response.

[Zarathustra]

What percentage of your federal tax payment would you say goes to that specific school district, Z? We're probably talking pennies on the dollar, if not a fraction of a penny.

You're getting your knickers in a twist over a couple of pennies, max.

So as long as violations of freedom and our core American principles is done on the cheap, I'm supposed to be fine with it? Do you know how small the tax was which started the American Revolution?

It's the principle, Aliantha, not the money. Can you understand that?

Tell me how much money it takes for you to start worrying about violation of church and state. What's your price?

[aliantha]

What percentage of your federal tax payment would you say goes to that specific school district, Z? We're probably talking pennies on the dollar, if not a fraction of a penny.

You're getting your knickers in a twist over a couple of pennies, max.

So as long as violations of freedom and our core American principles is done on the cheap, I'm supposed to be fine with it? Do you know how small the tax was which started the American Revolution?

It's the principle, Aliantha, not the money. Can you understand that?

Tell me how much money it takes for you to start worrying about violation of church and state. What's your price?

It's one hell of a lot more than a fraction of a penny, I can tell you that.

[Fist and Faith]

I also just read it, thanks to Damelon's link. First time I read it.

Yes, I agree with ali. I don't have a problem with this particular case. None of anybody's tax dollars are being used to make something new for any religion. It's not like a Muslim shrine is being built at the school. The school are there, and the field is there. When it's used is not an issue. No more than using the auditorium for a Christmas pageant. The auditorium is there. It doesn't cost extra to put a nativity scene on it. In neither case is anyone establishing an official religion. One is happening because of a once-in-30-years event, and one is happening once per year. If nobody was allowed to use the football field at night because of any other religion's needs, or if nobody was allowed to use the auditorium for any other religious reason, I'd have a problem.

Sure, maybe in either case, a higher electricity bill? Maybe some extra janitorial work? I don't have a problem with either. I don't have a problem with a portion of my tax dollars going to religious things in general. I just don't want one religion getting preferential treatment. Any religion can run up the electric bill a little bit occasionally, as far as I'm concerned.

[aliantha]

I just remembered that there are religious congregations around here -- Christian congregations -- that rent out school auditoriums every Sunday for their services. I think that skates closer to the border between church and state than a football team moving the time of its practices.

[Zarathustra]

Dearborn coach fired after student leaves Islam

Posted on August 4, 2009

By Drew Zahn @ WND -Muslim principal allegedly irate that wrestler left Islam to be baptized

A high school hall-of-fame and Christian wrestling coach in Dearborn, Mich., claims he was muscled out of his long-tenured coaching job by the school’s principal, a devout Muslim, because the administrator was furious over a student wrestler who had converted to Christianity from Islam.

Gerald Marszalek has coached wrestling for 35 years at Dearborn Public Schools, amassing more than 450 wins and, in addition to being added to the Michigan High School Athletic Association Hall of Fame, was named “Sportsman of the Year” by the All-American Athletic Association.

Despite Marsazalek’s success, however, Principal Imad Fadlallah of Dearborn’s Fordson High School ordered the administration not to renew the coach’s contract, allegedly in retaliation over the student’s conversion and to continue a campaign of flushing Christianity out of the school.

“We are getting a glimpse of what happens when Muslims who refuse to accept American values and principles gain political power in an American community,” said Richard Thompson, president and chief counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, which is representing Marsazalek. “Failure to renew coach Marszalek’s contract had nothing to do with wrestling and everything to do with religion.”

That fall, Fadlallah fired Hancock and ordered the volunteer coach not to have further contact with the student wrestlers.

“Subsequently, in full view of students and faculty,” the lawsuit states, “Fadlallah approached the young Fordson student who had chosen to be baptized a Christian at Hancock’s summer wrestling camp, punched the student and advised the student he had ‘disgraced his family’ by converting to Christianity from Islam.”

According to the lawsuit, however, Marszalek’s treatment by Fadlallah isn’t isolated, but part of an intentional eradication of Christianity from the school.

“Fadlallah, since assuming duties as Fordsons’ principal in 2005, has systematically weeded out Christian teachers, coaches and employees and has terminated, demoted or reassigned them because of their Christian beliefs,” the lawsuit continues. “Fadlallah has publicly stated ‘he sees Dearborn Fordson High School as a Muslim school, both in students and faculty, and is working to that end.’”

Where is the ACLU? Will they represent the defendants?

Update: Fordson High Principal & Assistant Principal are cousins of terrorist group Hizbollah’s spiritual leader

The school’s principal, Imad Fadlallah, is a relative of Hezbollah spiritual leader Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, a Specially Designated Terrorist (SDT) on the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Asset Control terrorist list, used by the State Department. Imad Fadlallah’s wife, Susan, is the daughter of Lebanese Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri, who was Hezbollah’s negotiator during the 1985 TWA flight 847 hijacking during which Hezbollah tortured to death Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem. Before that, he was the head of the Shi’ite Amal Militia, which has been absorbed into Hezbollah.

Another cousin, Majed Fadlallah, is Fordson’s Assistant Principal. And the school is a virtual one-stop employment shack for many of the cousins of Hezbollah’s Sheikh Mohammed Fadlallah.

link

The prinicpal of a public school punched a student in full view of faculty and other students and accused him of disgracing his family by leaving Islam.

Yeah, keep defending this loser. This school is an atrocity.

[Zarathustra]

As for Dearborn police being okay with the school's religious appeasement (as was argued earlier in this thread), check out this video of the Dearborn police arresting Christians for merely talking to Muslims about Christianity.

linkMuslims control this American city, and they decide their own religious brand of justice.

[aliantha]

And the opposing view:

(CNN) -- In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.

The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam. With promotions on its website and Facebook page, it invites Christians to burn the Muslim holy book at the church from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m.

"We believe that Islam is of the devil, that it's causing billions of people to go to hell, it is a deceptive religion, it is a violent religion and that is proven many, many times," Pastor Terry Jones told CNN's Rick Sanchez earlier this week.

Jones wrote a book titled "Islam is of the Devil," and the church sells coffee mugs and shirts featuring the phrase.

Muslims and many other Christians -- including some evangelicals -- are fighting the initiative.

The church launched a YouTube channel to disseminate its messages.

"I mean ask yourself, have you ever really seen a really happy Muslim? As they're on the way to Mecca? As they gather together in the mosque on the floor? Does it look like a real religion of joy?" Jones asks in one of his YouTube posts.

"No, to me it looks like a religion of the devil."

The Islamic advocacy group Council on American-Islamic Relations called on Muslims and others to host "Share the Quran" dinners to educate the public during the monthlong fast of Ramadan beginning in August. In a news release, the group announced a campaign to give out 100,000 copies of the Quran to local, state and national leaders.

"American Muslims and other people of conscience should support positive educational efforts to prevent the spread of Islamophobia," said CAIR spokesman Ibrahim Hooper in the release.

The National Association of Evangelicals, the nation's largest umbrella evangelical group, issued a statement urging the church to cancel the event, warning it could cause worldwide tension between the two religions.

"The NAE calls on its members to cultivate relationships of trust and respect with our neighbors of other faiths. God created human beings in his image, and therefore all should be treated with dignity and respect," it said in the statement.

Dove's Facebook page, set up for the September event, has more than 1,600 fans.

"Eternal fire is the only destination the Quran can lead people to, so we want to put the Quran in it's [sic] place -- the fire!" the page says.

But another Facebook group with more than 3,100 fans says it stands "against the disrespect and intolerance that these people have for the Muslim people" and encourages people to report Dove's page to Facebook.

Targeting another group it calls "godless," the Dove center is also hosting a protest against Gainesville Mayor Craig Lowe, who is openly gay, on Monday at Gainesville's City Hall. The group previously fought -- unsuccessfully -- to derail Lowe's election campaign.

"We protest sexual perversion because the Bible protests it. ... What is acceptable to today's leadership becomes acceptable to tomorrow's society," the church says in its blog entry about the event.

Lowe and other government figures and media outlets received e-mails from the church about the event, The Gainesville Sun reported. Lowe isn't concerned with Monday's event.

"I've got other things to do," he said, The Sun reports.

On the outreach center's front lawn, alongside a sign reading "Aug. 2 Protest, No Homo Mayor, City Hall," stands not just one, but three signs bearing the slogan "Islam is of the Devil."

One of the signs -- one reading "Islam" on one side, "Devil" on the other -- was vandalized. On its blog last week, the church said the sign will be replaced.

"This is private property and vandalism is a crime here in America," the blog says. "In Islam, many actions that we consider to be crimes are encouraged, condoned or sheltered under Islamic teaching and practice, though. Another reason to burn a Quran."

[Avatar]

Uh uh, if what was described in Z's link happened, I agree with him. You guys can't mix religion and school, and you shouldn't try.

--A

[Zarathustra]

Av, thanks for a bit of sanity. I haven't even posted yet about the tax-payer funded prayer rooms at this school.

I've got one easy question for those defending this Muslimized public school: if it was producing Islamic terrorists, would you finally admit it had a problem? Or would you continue to make excuses for it?

[Cybrweez]

I'm not talking about Jesus and Muhammad. I'm talking about most Christians and most Muslims. Most Christians do not think they should terrorize and murder, but the KKK does. Most Muslims do not think they should terrorize and murder, but the extremists who do things like 9/11 do. You go ahead and argue about how things got to this point, historical figures, etc etc. I don't care. I'm talking about the situation we are in now. Not all Muslims agree with what some Muslims did on 9/11. Many Muslims strongly oppose what was done on 9/11. Many Muslims are sad that many non-Muslims think of 9/11 when they hear the word Islam.

Then your quote is useless.

BTW, I have a Buddhist neighbor, who says as a Buddhist, he hates everyone and wants to destroy all living things (something about them all being unpure). I didn't think this was what Buddhism was all about, but hey, he says he's a Buddhist so I guess I was wrong.

Z, you made that up about the prayer rooms. No way do I believe that, the ACLU would be there in a flash, they look for that type of stuff. Christians have trouble praying in the school, after school hours, no way would there be tax funded prayer rooms.

[Fist and Faith]

Av, thanks for a bit of sanity. I haven't even posted yet about the tax-payer funded prayer rooms at this school.

I've got one easy question for those defending this Muslimized public school: if it was producing Islamic terrorists, would you finally admit it had a problem? Or would you continue to make excuses for it?

I never said I support everything that has happened or might happen in this school. I said I don't have a problem with football practice being held at night, for one week, once every 30 years, under the conditions it seems to have happed under. It might have been different. It could have been that some non-Muslim (or even Muslim) players objected. Could be they said they'd practice on their own, during regular practice times, but were kicked off the team for not agreeing to practice 11-4. THAT would be a serious problem. I'm sure a law suit would have resulted from it. And I'm sure the school would have lost, even if it had to go to the state or federal Supreme Court.

But none of that happened. They asked the players. The non-Muslim players agreed. The parents of the non-Muslim players agreed. We have no indication that they felt pressured to go along with it. As far as we know, for the sake of their friends, they went along with this. Chances are, teenage boys thought it would be pretty cool. Chances are their mothers said, "Are you crazy? That's the dumbest idea I ever heard." And the boys said, "Pleeeaaase!!!" And the fathers said, "He's up until all hours every night anyway. Who cares? Let him do it."

No, that does not mean I agree that Muslims should be allowed to fly planes into buildings. Or produce Islamic (or any other kind of) terrorists. Or have prayer rooms in the schools that are paid for by tax dollars. Or say prayers over the speakers. Or anything else you might come up with.

It means I don't object to the specific situation we're talking about. I'll discuss other issues on a one-by-one basis. You clearly want to make it seem like I have a blanket policy that anything any Muslims want to do is A-Ok with me, because I'm a liberal. But you are lying when you say that.

[Fist and Faith]

Uh uh, if what was described in Z's link happened, I agree with him. You guys can't mix religion and school, and you shouldn't try.

If you mean the one about the wrestling and punching the student, I can't imagine him getting away with it. I can't imagine him not being fired, as well as having a criminal record for the rest of his life. I know there's no way I would let it go at any point.

I wonder if the student's parents were ok with his conversion. I can't imagine him doing it without their ok, unless he had somehow managed to completely hide the entire situation from them. And if he did that, and they were furious about his conversion, they might possibly be on the principal's side. A disgusting scenario, imo, but one that I'm sure would happen in many cases, considering some of the things I've heard of some parents doing to their children.

[Damelon]

Two sides to the story:

A longtime Fordson High School wrestling coach whose contract was not renewed last year filed a federal lawsuit against Dearborn Public Schools and Fordson Principal Imad Fadlallah on Monday, claiming he was terminated because of his Christian religious beliefs.

The suit was filed in Detroit by a Livonia law firm and the Ann Arbor-based Thomas More Law Center.

The Thomas More Law Center, according to its website, is a "public interest law firm dedicated to the defense and promotion of the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life." The group provides counsel in a number of national lawsuits involving conservative causes and conflicts with Muslims.

Fadlallah terminated Gerald Marszalek from his position as Fordson wrestling coach in 2008 after he allegedly failed to keep a volunteer assistant coach away from the team. The assistant coach, a Christian evangelical pastor who was accused of using his position to try to convert Muslim students, had been ordered by Fadlallah not to associate with the team.

According to the lawsuit, Marszalek could not keep the pastor, Trey Hancock, away from team events because his son, Paul Hancock, was the team's star wrestler.

"Marszalek... was unceremoniously terminated from his position by Defendant's School District and Fadlallah because he is a Christian, because of his expression, and because of his associations," reads the complaint filed in U.S. district court.
"Defendant Fadlallah, a Muslim who was angry that a Christian minister was serving as a volunteer coach at Fordson, despite the fact that Hancock had never proselytized while volunteering at Fordson, terminated Hancock's volunteer status because of his Christian beliefs, which Defendant Fadlallah had deemed inconsistent with his own Muslim beliefs."

Hancock lost his job as a volunteer assistant coach in 2005 after he allegedly introduced Muslim students to Christianity during an off-campus wrestling camp for the team.

The school district has not yet offered direct comment on the lawsuit, but officials have said that coaches are "at-will" employees, hired and fired by principals, and that teachers' union contracts mandate that active teachers are given priority when filling coaching positions. Fordson chemistry teacher Ralph Hargraves now serves as the school's wrestling coach. Marszalek, 64, retired from teaching physical education in 2002.

The lawsuit claims that Fadlallah and the district violated Marszalek's constitutional rights to free religious exercise, free speech, expressive association, equal protection and due process.

It seeks financial compensation and lost wages.

Isn't that what you are accusing the Muslims of doing, Z? Mixing religion and sports.