How bad is it?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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TheFallen
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Post by TheFallen »

Cambo wrote:But how does the opinion that he has failed lead to the conclusion that he's in it purely for the money? Just because it "wasn't a good idea" and it "failed to integrate" into the backstory. I just don't see how that follows. Why is it out of the question that he simply tried to do something great and failed?

Put another way, how does

Premise One: Continuing a series just because an author wants to isn't always a good idea.

and

Premise Two: Stephen Donaldson has failed to integrate his latest creation with his previous series.

lead to

Conclusion: Stephen Donaldson has sold out.

:?: :?: :?:
Or to cheekily put your point more concisely - even the best of intentions doesn't necessarily prevent anyone from jumping the shark :biggrin:

(Not that I am saying that a shark has been jumped - I'm still on the fence).
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

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Post by Endymion9 »

I never feel animosity for an author because of the quality or rather how I perceive the quality of their work. Piers Anthony was even nice enough to tell potential buyers in an author's note that he had run out of ideas but could not say no to the huge amounts of money being thrown at him.

If I continue to buy his works after that, why would I blame him?

If I don't like a book, an author can go from my "most trusted" to "get a feel for the book before buying" category. But it doesn't want to make me accuse them of deceiving me or doing me wrong in any way.

The only author I have negative feelings about is David Gerrold and not because he couldn't finish War With The Chtorr series, but because he kept repacking it in more and more expensive editions claiming if you rebuy the series for the third or fourth time this time it will ensure you get the first copies of the fifth novel...which was not published years after those claims were made and probably never will be.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Endymion9 wrote:
The only author I have negative feelings about is David Gerrold and not because he couldn't finish War With The Chtorr series, but because he kept repacking it in more and more expensive editions claiming if you rebuy the series for the third or fourth time this time it will ensure you get the first copies of the fifth novel...which was not published years after those claims were made and probably never will be.
Ditto.
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Post by Cambo »

TheFallen wrote:
Cambo wrote:But how does the opinion that he has failed lead to the conclusion that he's in it purely for the money? Just because it "wasn't a good idea" and it "failed to integrate" into the backstory. I just don't see how that follows. Why is it out of the question that he simply tried to do something great and failed?

Put another way, how does

Premise One: Continuing a series just because an author wants to isn't always a good idea.

and

Premise Two: Stephen Donaldson has failed to integrate his latest creation with his previous series.

lead to

Conclusion: Stephen Donaldson has sold out.

:?: :?: :?:
Or to cheekily put your point more concisely - even the best of intentions doesn't necessarily prevent anyone from jumping the shark :biggrin:

(Not that I am saying that a shark has been jumped - I'm still on the fence).
Absolutely, which is why I find it hard to credit when people seem keen to accuse any author of selling out. Even when I don't like a book, when I hate a book, I generally assume it's because the author has either deliberately done something that left me behind, or simply failed. There'd be much more reason to accuse Stephen King of selling out, given the patchy quality of his recent work, the frequency of that work, and the staggering amount of money he is guaranteed to make for each release. But I give him the benefit of the doubt, not least because he has always churned books out at a cracker pace.
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Post by Zarathustra »

Donaldson wrote:But do I have any regrets about what I've written? None at all. I don't write for money. I write for love: I *sell* what I've written for money. The distinction is important. As a matter of historical fact, readers have not consistently loved what I love. Consequently my career has followed a less successful trajectory than, say, Terry's or Anne's. And, being human, I naturally wish that my career had been more successful. On the other hand, I do NOT wish that Terry or Anne or Alan or Katherine had been any less successful. They work hard, and they deserve what they get. What more needs to be said?

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Re: How bad is it?

Post by Lord Zombiac »

Cail wrote:I haven't read it. In fact, I just realized that it'd been released. I've read a few reviews on Amazon (and recognized a few of the reviewers), and skimmed a few topics here, and frankly the consensus isn't good. Honestly, should I bother reading it? Keep in mind that I think that both Runes and Fatal Revenant (the title of which I actually had to Google) were awful.

I feel like there might be something redeeming in having read the entire series, but frankly......I dunno.

Thoughts?
I strongly urge everyone who does not like this book to give it another reading. I think this is the best book in the entire series. I'm riveted.
Donaldson is in top form.
Every character is vivid and human in ways that teach many lessons about the struggles of life.
As per usual, the reader will be greatly dismayed by a lot of things. Hurtloam is back, but Covenant refuses it and remains a leper by his own choice.
From TPTP on, I kept wishing he could have that healing again. The Sunbane was agonizing to put up with, as well as Covenant's Elohim imposed absence throughout "the One Tree," but that only served to make overcoming these difficulties more meaningful.
Not since "the One Tree" has Donaldson tackled such earth shattering powers and immortalities and yet managed to keep it real and gripping.
When cord Pahni demanded that Linden resurrect Liand, Linden's insistence that she could not do it were very telling-- what good would anyone's sacrifice be if Linden could simply bring the dead back anytime someone gave their life for her?
No one else but Donaldson could capture such astoundingly vast and cosmic struggles without deflating the tensions of mortality.
And everyone is important, from the most humble Ramen to the most arrogant Elohim and Insequent.
"Fatal Revenant" is the first novel I have read to completion since 1998!
"Against All Things Ending," will be the second!
I only regret that I will have to wait until 2013 for "the Last Dark," and in that year, when I have turned the final page, I don't know if I'll be able to handle the sense of loss I will have that there will be no further tales of Covenant and "the Land."
I have previously estimated the entire series to be about a million and a half words-- now that I have access to an electronic copy that I can run a "word count" on, I realize that each volume in this series is about a quarter of a million words.
That's a very heavy investment for any author to ask anyone to make, yet I have been flying through this stuff since I was 14!
I'll stake my word on this-- AATE is an awesome book, perhaps the best in the series.
So rub Kevin's Dirt out of your eyes and give this another reading!
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Re: How bad is it?

Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Lord Zombiac wrote:
Cail wrote:I haven't read it. In fact, I just realized that it'd been released. I've read a few reviews on Amazon (and recognized a few of the reviewers), and skimmed a few topics here, and frankly the consensus isn't good. Honestly, should I bother reading it? Keep in mind that I think that both Runes and Fatal Revenant (the title of which I actually had to Google) were awful.

I feel like there might be something redeeming in having read the entire series, but frankly......I dunno.

Thoughts?
I strongly urge everyone who does not like this book to give it another reading. I think this is the best book in the entire series. I'm riveted.
Donaldson is in top form.
Every character is vivid and human in ways that teach many lessons about the struggles of life.
As per usual, the reader will be greatly dismayed by a lot of things. Hurtloam is back, but Covenant refuses it and remains a leper by his own choice.
From TPTP on, I kept wishing he could have that healing again. The Sunbane was agonizing to put up with, as well as Covenant's Elohim imposed absence throughout "the One Tree," but that only served to make overcoming these difficulties more meaningful.
Not since "the One Tree" has Donaldson tackled such earth shattering powers and immortalities and yet managed to keep it real and gripping.
When cord Pahni demanded that Linden resurrect Liand, Linden's insistence that she could not do it were very telling-- what good would anyone's sacrifice be if Linden could simply bring the dead back anytime someone gave their life for her?
Yes, but that wasn't her reason.

Her reason was that she couldn't.
Lord Zombiac wrote:No one else but Donaldson could capture such astoundingly vast and cosmic struggles without deflating the tensions of mortality.
And everyone is important, from the most humble Ramen to the most arrogant Elohim and Insequent.
"Fatal Revenant" is the first novel I have read to completion since 1998!
"Against All Things Ending," will be the second!
I only regret that I will have to wait until 2013 for "the Last Dark," and in that year, when I have turned the final page, I don't know if I'll be able to handle the sense of loss I will have that there will be no further tales of Covenant and "the Land."
I have previously estimated the entire series to be about a million and a half words-- now that I have access to an electronic copy that I can run a "word count" on, I realize that each volume in this series is about a quarter of a million words.
That's a very heavy investment for any author to ask anyone to make, yet I have been flying through this stuff since I was 14!
I'll stake my word on this-- AATE is an awesome book, perhaps the best in the series.
So rub Kevin's Dirt out of your eyes and give this another reading!
Impressions change over time. Each reading will bring something new. I tried to tell people that, but only in a dry intellectual way and not with so enthusiastically.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

Well, yeah, she couldn't but my point is, if she could-- wouldn't that have been boring? Wouldn't that have made Liand's death meaningless?
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Lord Zombiac wrote:Well, yeah, she couldn't but my point is, if she could-- wouldn't that have been boring? Wouldn't that have made Liand's death meaningless?
That would be the main Haruchai complaint. On the other hand, there might be a lot of this to come in TLD. Imagine all the dead Old Lords being resurrected.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

I also want to point something out-- I've read two other series of books that were thicker than my thumb... or my even larger extremity ;).
F. Paul Wilson's "the Keep" series, and Thomas Harris's series, beginning with "Red Dragon."
Both authors had ambitions that went beyond the scope of their ability to create a meaningful read.
About halfway through the second to the last Wilson book, I had the feeling that I was reading it, just to get to the end. Wilson attempted encompass immortal powers, vast cosmic struggles, and overwhelming evil. I had a sense early on that he would fail. He bit off more than he could chew, which is a shame because "the Keep" was a great book and had great potential.
Thomas Harris had a very good series as well, but when I read Hannibal, I just kind of went, "meh." What was the point, you know? Shock value? Feeding people to pigs and making a dude eat his own brain? So what? Where's the meaning?
Donaldson, however, delivers what he promises you. This series is immortal and I will be sad when it has ended.
The transforming moral lessons are still fresh and powerful. I'd be bored out of my skull if this was just another quest of Covenant against Lord Foul. This is Linden's time to shine. Yet Covenant is hardly insignificant. When Linden has lost all power and all seems hopeless under mount Thunder, it was Covenant's courage and heroic confrontation with She Who Must Not Be Named that delivered them from certain doom.
That he had to do so at the sacrifice of his daughter was heart wrenching.
And once again, the consequences of Covenant's raping of Lena provide a bitterly thought provoking narrative device.
Really, I can't understand why people do not like this book-- Hell, Cail says he doesn't even like this entire "Last Chronicles" series.
Again, I will insinuate here that Kevin's Dirt is at work. Something is obscuring this delightful magic from your eyes, people!
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Lord Zombiac wrote:I also want to point something out-- I've read two other series of books that were thicker than my thumb... or my even larger extremity ;).
F. Paul Wilson's "the Keep" series, and Thomas Harris's series, beginning with "Red Dragon."
Both authors had ambitions that went beyond the scope of their ability to create a meaningful read.
About halfway through the second to the last Wilson book, I had the feeling that I was reading it, just to get to the end. Wilson attempted encompass immortal powers, vast cosmic struggles, and overwhelming evil. I had a sense early on that he would fail. He bit off more than he could chew, which is a shame because "the Keep" was a great book and had great potential.
Thomas Harris had a very good series as well, but when I read Hannibal, I just kind of went, "meh." What was the point, you know? Shock value? Feeding people to pigs and making a dude eat his own brain? So what? Where's the meaning?
Donaldson, however, delivers what he promises you. This series is immortal and I will be sad when it has ended.
The transforming moral lessons are still fresh and powerful. I'd be bored out of my skull if this was just another quest of Covenant against Lord Foul. This is Linden's time to shine. Yet Covenant is hardly insignificant. When Linden has lost all power and all seems hopeless under mount Thunder, it was Covenant's courage and heroic confrontation with She Who Must Not Be Named that delivered them from certain doom.
That he had to do so at the sacrifice of his daughter was heart wrenching.
And once again, the consequences of Covenant's raping of Lena provide a bitterly thought provoking narrative device.
Really, I can't understand why people do not like this book-- Hell, Cail says he doesn't even like this entire "Last Chronicles" series.
Again, I will insinuate here that Kevin's Dirt is at work. Something is obscuring this delightful magic from your eyes, people!
I'll admit I didn't like TWL at first. Sunbane? Riders? Bring back the Lords! And Earthpower! And then along came what I thought was Donaldson's biggest joke of all: after retrieving the Krill, Thomas Covenant declared out of the blue that he wanted to find the One Tree and create a new Staff of Law, although he had no idea where to start looking and neither did anybody else. Nor did he have any clue how to create a new Staff.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

"Fatal Revenant" is the first novel I have read to completion since 1998!
"Against All Things Ending," will be the second!
Jesus! See how good this stuff is? "Runes of the Earth" is actually the first novel I've read to completion since 1998.

See how good this stuff is?

I read two complete novels of 1/4 million words each and didn't even notice that I'd read two of them!

That, my friends, is how you can tell something is good!

... or how you can tell you're crazy... I'm good with either conclusion! :biggrin:
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Post by Graham McArthur »

AATE is the best book in a very good series. If you don't like the books, don't read them.
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Post by TheFallen »

Graham McArthur wrote:AATE is the best book in a very good series. If you don't like the books, don't read them.
...begging the obvious question, how do you know whether you're going to appreciate the books or not, unless you read them in the first place? :biggrin:

I've already just re-read ROTE and I'm 1/3rd the way through a re-read of FR to see in the light of such fresh re-reads whether some of the issues I have with AATE are lessened in some way. To save you trawling through this entire thread, here are the issues that just I'm uneasy with (with others being uneasy about other things and yet more others being fervent supporters of the entirety of the Last Chrons):

A major move in author interest towards internalized conflict within the main protagonist (something that permeates the entire Last Chronicles - nothing wrong with this as an authorial goal, but just to me personally, it somehow alters the balance of the narrative too much away from the wide-focus epic and too much towards tight-focus psychodrama).

An apparent lack of authorial interest in fleshing out secondary characters. If I think back to the 1st or 2nd Chrons, part of my engrossed appreciation was centred on how I was led to care about Mhoram, Bannor, Foamfollower, Hile Troy, Sunder, Hollian, The First, Pitchwife, Grimmand, Brinn and many many more by the depth of their characterisation. To me this was every bit as important as the interest inspired in me by the dilemmas of the central protagonists, TC and Linden, and every bit as important as how much I was led to care about the Land itself. I don't see the same interest in secondary characters from SRD in the Last Chrons - a clear example being the two dimensional "fuzzy felt" giants" that we find in the Last Chrons. It's as if SRD is concentrating almost exclusively on depth - depth within his depiction of Linden - rather than breadth. He's got every right to do that, of course - it's entirely his creation - but as a reader, I have a personal right to my own reactions.

In close relation to this - and I'll preface this issue with the words "so far", before Worm leaps at my throat, pointing out quite rightly that the Last Chrons aren't finished yet :wink: - so far in the Last Chrons, I'm uneasy with an apparent cavalier authorial attitude towards some of the characters. To me - and yes, it's subjective - this shows itself in the cases of sudden character disposal. Liand, Anele, Esmer and Joan all quite abruptly meet their various demises and in the case of the latter three, given SRD's acknowledged strength in portraying conflicted characters, I felt they were almost disposed of for convenience... they'd outlived their narrative usefulness in moving the plot along, so off they went. I didn't feel that the issues they presented or evidenced - or their relationships with other characters or the narrative as a whole - were properly resolved before the trapdoor opened and off the stage they dropped.

The same sort of thing applies to the sudden appearance of She Who Must Not Be Named. Up she pops all of a sudden and almost entirely unannounced from nowhere, apparently to provide a dramatic chase scene and a foil to Linden in the lost deeps. That smacked a bit of pure plot device for me - pretty much a pure"diabola ex machina" for want of a better term.

Yet again in close relation to the first point above, although of less importance to me than others who have highlighted this, to me there's an issue with pacing. Other have said words to the effect of "hugely long periods of agonised self-contemplation and indecisive navel-gazing followed by sections where too much happens all at once". I think this is valid, but again springs from SRD's move to concentrate on what has been called "psychodrama". It seems to be Linden's inner conflicts, self-flagellation and indecisiveness that he wants to home in on, to the extent that there seems to be a carelessness with or at least inattention to all other things. Again, that's entirely his authorial right.

For all the above, I'm still ambivalent about the Last Chrons - there are indeed great things in there as well and SRD has set himself a vast task in coming up with a concluding history, what with all the currently unresolved narrative threads. I do wonder sometimes if it's this vastness of task that is responsible for characters being killed off almost negligently - one less thing to resolve, perhaps?

I'm also well aware that it must have been a far harder thing to write - it's pithier, concentrates on more complex internal issues and as such, not so easily accessible. I'm just uneasy with the narrative balancing - so far :D

(None of which I'd have been able to opine without having read - and now re-read - the Last Chronicles).

PS By the way all, in case you don't remember, as I've just re-discovered in my re-read, the Quellvisk *do* get a quite literally one word mention in FR - from Roger while masquerading as TC. He names them as one of the denizens of the Land that are still around in Berek's time! Hardly a seamless tie-in foreshadowing their sudden post-mortem appearance and brief history in AATE, but hey, they were at least mentioned!
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Post by peter »

Writing books for money is not a crime - writing these books for money may be so - it's like being paid to slash a painting.

No, seriously, the man has a right to earn money for his work the same as the rest of us and on this basis I think the 'money' issue is a red herring. The question in my mind is rather 'If Donaldson wanted to write what is essentially a totally different type of work, would it not have been fairer to do it as a freestanding work that did not trade on the expectations of an existing readership, many of whom (most in fact I believe) were bound to be dissapointed by the total change of style?
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Post by Zarathustra »

Lord Zombiac wrote:Really, I can't understand why people do not like this book--


And I can't understand why you've only read two books in the last 13 years! :lol: Maybe if you read more, you'd understand our perspective on how other authors can deal with deep philosophical themes and still produce an entertaining read. Like Bakker. Or like Donaldson's previous two Chronicles.
Lord Zombiac wrote:Again, I will insinuate here that Kevin's Dirt is at work. Something is obscuring this delightful magic from your eyes, people!
Yes, Kevin's Dirt is one of the biggest problems of the Last Chronicles. You don't have to insinuate: it's right there in the story, obscuring all the magic and delight with the limp, vague threat of a slightly smoggy sky. She-Bane farts, someone else called it.

But seriously, there are many thoughtful reasons given throughout this forum, reasons which don't rely on fart jokes. Some of them are actually pretty good.
Lord Zombiac wrote:I read two complete novels of 1/4 million words each and didn't even notice that I'd read two of them!

That, my friends, is how you can tell something is good!
I have a feeling you're pulling our collective leg, now. Not noticing that you read a book is supposed to be a sign that it's good? Try telling your wife or girlfriend that she was so good last night, that you didn't even remember having sex with her. See if she thinks that's a good sign. :lol:
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Post by TheFallen »

Lord Zombiac wrote:Really, I can't understand why people do not like this book--
I think I understand why - if you've only read two books in the last 13 years and entirely forgotten the existence of one of them, maybe you've also only been able to apply this low reading capacity with the added disadvantage of only 50% information retention to the numerous posts about the last Chrons in this and other threads. :biggrin:

Seriously, as Zarathustra has said in his post, a number of people have given carefully thought-through reasons as to why they have issues with the Last Chrons, probably equalling in number those people who have given carefully thought-through reasons as to why they admire and appreciate the Last Chrons. Of course there are also a few posts that just bellow "The LCs suck - I HATE them" and a few others that just yell "The LCs are fab - I LOVE them", but we'll discount those.
zarathustra wrote:I have a feeling you're pulling our collective leg, now. Not noticing that you read a book is supposed to be a sign that it's good? Try telling your wife or girlfriend that she was so good last night, that you didn't even remember having sex with her. See if she thinks that's a good sign. :lol:
Well if I *ever* was dumb enough to make such a slip-up, as a marketing guy, I'd probably try to rescue the situation by quickly adding "Yes, darling, last night was so wonderful... you positively ****** me into oblivion". Okay okay, that'd never work. :oops:
Newsflash: the word "irony" doesn't mean "a bit like iron" :roll:

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Post by Lord Zombiac »

I think if you read half a million words and it seems that you've read far less, it's a sign that the author is doing his job.
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thewormoftheworld'send
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Zarathustra wrote:
Lord Zombiac wrote:Really, I can't understand why people do not like this book--


And I can't understand why you've only read two books in the last 13 years! :lol: Maybe if you read more, you'd understand our perspective on how other authors can deal with deep philosophical themes and still produce an entertaining read. Like Bakker. Or like Donaldson's previous two Chronicles.
Lord Zombiac wrote:Again, I will insinuate here that Kevin's Dirt is at work. Something is obscuring this delightful magic from your eyes, people!
Yes, Kevin's Dirt is one of the biggest problems of the Last Chronicles. You don't have to insinuate: it's right there in the story, obscuring all the magic and delight with the limp, vague threat of a slightly smoggy sky. She-Bane farts, someone else called it.

But seriously, there are many thoughtful reasons given throughout this forum, reasons which don't rely on fart jokes. Some of them are actually pretty good.
Since the Haruchai know what a tsunami is, I'm surprised they didn't call it "Kevin's Ozone."
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Zarathustra
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Post by Zarathustra »

Lord Zombiac wrote:I think if you read half a million words and it seems that you've read far less, it's a sign that the author is doing his job.
Ah, good point. I stand corrected. AATE seemed like a billion words to me. I see what you mean. :)
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