Kevin's Watch

I have experience with people who feel their feelings more intensely than the rest of us. In good and bad ways. I wouldn't go so far as to say that manic-depression is a character trait - rather, it can become an expectation in others when it isn't being treated carefully and consistently.
I have seen the zonking effects of most psychoactive drugs -- and I believe that most of them should only be used as temporary mood stabilizers, until behavioral therapy can provide lasting tools like coping mechanisms, support structures, and other things that, once they become habitual, are much more effective than meds, and less toxic to the body.
I'm not saying that molecules can't improve brain chemistry - I'm just saying that too often we assume/hope a pill can instamagically cure mania or depression, instead of looking at meds as just the first step on a lengthy and multi-stop road to wellness.

dw

DukkhaWaynhim wrote:I have experience with people who feel their feelings more intensely than the rest of us. In good and bad ways. I wouldn't go so far as to say that manic-depression is a character trait - rather, it can become an expectation in others when it isn't being treated carefully and consistently.
I have seen the zonking effects of most psychoactive drugs -- and I believe that most of them should only be used as temporary mood stabilizers, until behavioral therapy can provide lasting tools like coping mechanisms, support structures, and other things that, once they become habitual, are much more effective than meds, and less toxic to the body.
I'm not saying that molecules can't improve brain chemistry - I'm just saying that too often we assume/hope a pill can instamagically cure mania or depression, instead of looking at meds as just the first step on a lengthy and multi-stop road to wellness.

dw

I'd add to this that if there is a spiritual malaise that is not properly being treated, then all of the purely physical treatments (meds) or even behavioral threapies will be ineffective.

Unless you mean something Exorcist-y, I would classify spiritual healing as one possible 'support structure.'

dw

aliantha wrote:I guess the question is whether it's worth the tradeoff.

Exactly. Personally speaking, the less depressed I got, the less I wrote. And now that I'm largely actively happy, I hardly write at all. Except for work and the Watch of course, but you know what I mean.

But at the time, it was worth it. Without it, I wouldn't have been me if y'know what I mean.

--A

Avatar wrote:

aliantha wrote:I guess the question is whether it's worth the tradeoff.

Exactly. Personally speaking, the less depressed I got, the less I wrote. And now that I'm largely actively happy, I hardly write at all. Except for work and the Watch of course, but you know what I mean.

But at the time, it was worth it. Without it, I wouldn't have been me if y'know what I mean.

--A

I know exactly what you mean, Av. If I could snap my fingers and change anything about my depression, I would give myself a better ability to cope with it, rather than removing it entirely.

Avatar wrote:Exactly. Personally speaking, the less depressed I got, the less I wrote. And now that I'm largely actively happy, I hardly write at all. Except for work and the Watch of course, but you know what I mean.

But at the time, it was worth it. Without it, I wouldn't have been me if y'know what I mean.

--A

I've heard a different take on this... one woman in the psych field was hypothesizing that it was a lack of exercise of creative abilities that often drove people to depression. (Maybe now you're using your creativity in other ways that are more natural and just seem less noteworthy?)

For me, my times of depression were (in some ways!) good times to take stock of who I am, but bad times to try to imagine who I could become.

My experience is that I would see my limitations and internal "walls" (and the reasons for them) MUCH more lucidly when depressed. And it has given me a healthy self-doubt.

Unfortunately, at the same time, a lot of the metaphorical "doors and windows" would become more or less invisible. But windows and doors are... you know, an IMPORTANT feature of reality!

Cambo wrote:I would give myself a better ability to cope with it, rather than removing it entirely.

There ya go. So you know what you should be paying attention to...finding effective coping mechanisms.

Linna wrote:My experience is that I would see my limitations and internal "walls" (and the reasons for them) MUCH more lucidly when depressed.

Richard Bach wrote:Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours.

--A

aliantha wrote:

Avatar wrote:To become a little more general again, was chatting to the GF on the topic and she pointed out an interesting thing...everybody treats depression as though it's a terrible thing.

Unless it's constantly and significantly interfering with your ability to go about your life, is it necessarily?

--A

Let's not lose this. It's a good question.

Creative people have been quite successful in tapping that wellspring of feeling to propel their work. Certainly lorin's mother did. And she's just one example. And stories abound of artists of all types who suffer from depression and who are afraid that they'll lose their creativity if they're cured.

I guess the question is whether it's worth the tradeoff.

An interesting week for me. Many revelations. As some may know, I spent the week in New Mexico at the 'fest. I detected two big movements in my thoughts this week which are worth sharing. The first is that Danlo has a wonderful little 6 year old. She is everything I had dreamed my daughter would have been. Charming, sensitive, intelligent. In the past I avoided all contact with children. I avoided eye contact, or any interaction because I thought my heart would break in tiny shards. But this little girl engaged ME and I responded. I allowed her to talk to me and we ended up spending large amounts of time together and the world did not come to an end. I shed a few tears and then I enjoyed the moment. We did arts and crafts together, we played, did puzzles and it was ok. I survived, actually I thrived.

During the dinner with SRD I was sitting happily in the background listening to him speak, enjoying what he had to say, enjoying the comfortable atmosphere and the friendship. As I was sitting there he revealed that his father had committed suicide. I have never shed a tear at my mother's suicide, not one tear in the years since her death. But at that moment I felt the floor fall out from under me. The tears flowed, and I could not stop. And at that moment I realized one thing which I should have known all these years, that I stopped writing when my mother died. That all creativity stopped at her death. Why did it stop? I am sure there are many reasons.

SRD used his fathers suicide as a catalyst to write, integrating it into many aspects of his work. I used my mothers suicide as a reason to stop writing. I think that now it is time to use it in my work, to embrace it and stop intellectualizing the event.

A very interesting week.

Sounds like it was a week of great catharsis, Lorin. Here's hoping it will bring you a measure of peace.

Lorin- I am rejoicing for you. I was definitely thinking about that, wondering about how that would go, with Gracie. I am gladdened.



Wow… SRD sharing that. Sounds like that was your moment, in a way. Thanks for sharing with us.

Av- Are you trying to provoke me with that quote?
(eh, provocation can be useful sometimes; I like to prod people, myself, on occasion)

I was mainly talking about discovering the NATURE of my limitations. And I wasn't saying that all limitations were immutable.

It's pretty darn useful when I discover that some of my limitations which I thought were mental, physical, or temporal were actually moral limitations

Quotes are kind of second-hand... What's YOUR take on limitations, Av?

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Av- Are you trying to provoke me with that quote?

No, he's trying to get you to read a really great, very short book. Illusions, by Richard Bach.

lorin wrote:An interesting week for me. Many revelations. As some may know, I spent the week in New Mexico at the 'fest. I detected two big movements in my thoughts this week which are worth sharing. The first is that Danlo has a wonderful little 6 year old. She is everything I had dreamed my daughter would have been. Charming, sensitive, intelligent. In the past I avoided all contact with children. I avoided eye contact, or any interaction because I thought my heart would break in tiny shards. But this little girl engaged ME and I responded. I allowed her to talk to me and we ended up spending large amounts of time together and the world did not come to an end. I shed a few tears and then I enjoyed the moment. We did arts and crafts together, we played, did puzzles and it was ok. I survived, actually I thrived.

Avoiding love is not the solution to any problem, in any circumstances, for any reason. Love will only help any problem, and heal any pain. You either spend your life regretting not having children of your own, and not enjoying the love of the children others have had; or you spend your life regretting not having children of your own, and enjoying the love of the children others have had.

Linna Heartlistener wrote:Quotes are kind of second-hand... What's YOUR take on limitations, Av?

Timothy Leary wrote:Whatever you believe to be true is true, within limits to be defined by experience and experiment.

Depends on what you mean. Everybody has certain limitations at certain times. Right now, I can't carry 100kg. I can't go home right now either, because I'm at work.

Are those limitations? If they are, they're self-imposed. I could train until I can carry those 100kg. I could go home if I really wanted to, if I wanted it more than I want to get paid.

I can't fly. Is that a limitation? Maybe. But it's not one that anybody can do anything about. Therefore it's not worth worrying about it.

--A

i have suffered from depression all of my life.

i use my art as therapy. but you all should have guessed that.

but being at e-fest made me realize how much i need like-minded friends.

my friend tom (art car museum curator) filled that void until he was neddlessly killed by a drunk driver. it sent me into a tailspin for awhile.

so a big thanks to all of you for keeping my balanced.

and a special shout-out to lucimay, after julie luci is my biggest fan. and her defense of my writing on the watch has been a much needed boost. thank you luci!

sgt.null wrote:i have suffered from depression all of my life.

i use my art as therapy. but you all should have guessed that.

but being at e-fest made me realize how much i need like-minded friends.

my friend tom (art car museum curator) filled that void until he was neddlessly killed by a drunk driver. it sent me into a tailspin for awhile.

so a big thanks to all of you for keeping my balanced.

and a special shout-out to lucimay, after julie luci is my biggest fan. and her defense of my writing on the watch has been a much needed boost. thank you luci!

You should come here more often, Sarge. This is one of my favourite little corners of the Watch.

well i am not much into philosophy and not well read on the subject at all - but,

i will give a looksee. thank you.

sgt.null wrote:well i am not much into philosophy and not well read on the subject at all - but,

i will give a looksee. thank you.

I meant the depression thread, but the Close in general is great too- though, that's speaking as a fan of philosophy.

welll i wish i had been here yesterday instead of work. and today i have the worst type of human being working ahead of me.

she is the type who thinks that other people must fail for her to succeed. just makes work miserable. i want so much to tell her that the job is just a means to support what i really want to do in life.

but cutting her hatred off at the source will be hard - she just wallows in her own self misery. luckily i only work behind her one day a week.

I don't get it. You have to stare at her butt all day??

Fist and Faith wrote:I don't get it. You have to stare at her butt all day??

ugh - thankfully no. she works the shift ahead of me. i have to come in after her. we work only a few hours together - but it is torture...