How bad is it?

Book 3 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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Cail
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Post by Cail »

Zarathustra wrote:Yeah. That's it. Why bother looking at all the 1000s of words people have written to explain their own feelings when you can sum it up for them in one condescending bumper-sticker psychoanalysis?
Which is why I've bowed out of my own thread.

I don't need some pompous know-it-all to tell me why I like (or don't like) a certain book. I've explained very clearly why I think the LC are weak. I've expressed my disappointment after each of the last three books has been released.

My beliefs and opinions are not based on nostalgia or any other such nonsense, as I hated TOT when I first read it. One of my main gripes about that book, was the ridiculous WotWE myth, that had never been mentioned before, nor was it mentioned in WGW. I have mentioned this dislike in years past, and if anyone's retentive enough they can search out those posts.

So to my chagrin, TWotWE is a major plot point in the LC.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

Come on, Cail! I'm not a pompous know it all. I'm just saying you might change your opinion after what you have read sinks in, or with a re-reading.

Jesus! Everyone can be wrong about something. A little gentle prodding never hurt anyone, or are you just too much of a baby to put up with any criticism?

Hell, I only care about what you think because I like you!
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Post by Cail »

Lord Zombiac wrote:Come on, Cail! I'm not a pompous know it all. I'm just saying you might change your opinion after what you have read sinks in, or with a re-reading.

Jesus! Everyone can be wrong about something. A little gentle prodding never hurt anyone, or are you just too much of a baby to put up with any criticism?

Hell, I only care about what you think because I like you!
I'm 42 years old, which is old enough to know what I like without a stranger telling me I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

It seems like the loyal fanboys here are the ones who can't handle it when everyone doesn't fawn over the latest book.

I'm a huge Pink Floyd fan too, and I'm objective enough to be honest about them as well....There's no shortage of bad PF songs either, and I don't throw a tantrum when someone points that out.

Edited to add- And who the hell do you think you are to tell me that my opinion of this book (or the last two) is wrong?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Lord Zombiac wrote:
And many of us are. While Donaldson's writing in AATE has evolved naturally from his writing style in the past, it is without question different. Some of those differences I like, some I do not. If you want to boil it down to anything, boil it down to that.
I did. Is this not change?
Isn't change a major theme of the Last Chrons? Change is inevitable. I think it can be at least appreciated for the lesson Donaldson is trying to impart.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

I didn't tell you you were wrong. I said everyone can be wrong about something!
I could be wrong about this too!
I wanted to love Tim Burton's "Planet of the Apes" because that is like my all time favorite work of fiction, and Tim Burton is an awesome film maker.
I wanted to love it so much that I did! In spite of the utterly horrible "twist ending" that made no sense, I thought it was a good movie until everything sunk in!
I'm 43, so I'm still your elder! :P
Plus I'm mature enough to suggest that I may be wrong as well...
But I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I can trust my feelings about this.
Quit taking it so personally. Or are you too weak to entertain notions that other people suggest to you?
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

I'll say it, just to provoke you ;)
There are indeed a few bad Pink Floyd songs: every damned one that Syd Barrett had nothing to do with!
Seriously, can we lighten up? This is the closest to a flame war I've ever had on the watch!
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Post by Cail »

No, I'm just sick of know-it-alls thinking that they know what's best. My opinion is mine, and no amount of prodding is going to change that. I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but not my opinions. They're opinions about art, they can't be wrong.

BTW, Tim Burton hasn't made a good movie since Beetlejuice, and David Gilmour was the best thing to ever happen to Pink Floyd.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Lord Zombiac wrote:I'll say it, just to provoke you ;)
There are indeed a few bad Pink Floyd songs: every damned one that Syd Barrett had nothing to do with!
Seriously, can we lighten up? This is the closest to a flame war I've ever had on the watch!
Here, here! I'm older, wiser, and more mature than both of you.

I only pointed in the general direction of some posts on this thread that has gone on for 17 pages now, I never made statements about the people behind those comments. And which posts those are is up to others to determine.

As for the (loaded) question that started this thread, I would say that, on a 10 point rating system, AATE rates a 3 on the bad side. So that's 7 on the good side.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

BTW, Tim Burton hasn't made a good movie since Beetlejuice, and David Gilmour was the best thing to ever happen to Pink Floyd.
That's why I love you! ;)
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Cail wrote:No, I'm just sick of know-it-alls thinking that they know what's best. My opinion is mine, and no amount of prodding is going to change that. I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but not my opinions. They're opinions about art, they can't be wrong.
If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
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Post by alanm »

right, have finished the book AATE and it is now on the book shelf where it will gather dust. I will wait for the last book but as things stand at the moment in my opinion the LC are a waste of my money. I just dont get how they follow on at all from the first 6 books which to my mind are a complete story. This latest sequel just does not fit in. I think SRD has lost the plot and has tried to flesh out the LC with so many new things that just dont fit and never will fit. I think if he wanted to make the LC fit better with the original 6 books then a wait of 25 years or so was not the best thing in the world to do.

and now we have another 2 years to wait for the last in the series.
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alanm wrote:right, have finished the book AATE and it is now on the book shelf where it will gather dust. I will wait for the last book but as things stand at the moment in my opinion the LC are a waste of my money. I just dont get how they follow on at all from the first 6 books which to my mind are a complete story. This latest sequel just does not fit in. I think SRD has lost the plot and has tried to flesh out the LC with so many new things that just dont fit and never will fit. I think if he wanted to make the LC fit better with the original 6 books then a wait of 25 years or so was not the best thing in the world to do.

and now we have another 2 years to wait for the last in the series.
It's hard to believe that Covenant failed to utterly defeat Foul twice, as Kevin failed in the past. And there is textual support for the idea that Foul can be rejuvenated by Earthpower - there was something in TWL about his existing on the "fringes" of Earthpower until his powers came back. This may have been a more slow, more difficult process of recovery with the new Staff of Law in the Land, but hardly impossible.
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
tee-hee!
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Post by Cail »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Cail wrote:No, I'm just sick of know-it-alls thinking that they know what's best. My opinion is mine, and no amount of prodding is going to change that. I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but not my opinions. They're opinions about art, they can't be wrong.
If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
No, it implies that to anyone other than the source of the opinion, they're meaningless. My opinion is my own, and it's right for me. It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me.

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank, and I'll do it regarding art as well.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by thewormoftheworld'send »

Cail wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Cail wrote:No, I'm just sick of know-it-alls thinking that they know what's best. My opinion is mine, and no amount of prodding is going to change that. I'm wrong about all sorts of things, but not my opinions. They're opinions about art, they can't be wrong.
If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
No, it implies that to anyone other than the source of the opinion, they're meaningless. My opinion is my own, and it's right for me. It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me.

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank, and I'll do it regarding art as well.
Your opinions are obviously not meaningless to others.
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Post by Cail »

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
Cail wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote: If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
No, it implies that to anyone other than the source of the opinion, they're meaningless. My opinion is my own, and it's right for me. It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me.

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank, and I'll do it regarding art as well.
Your opinions are obviously not meaningless to others.
That's their choice, isn't it though?

Look, you can tell me that you think Pink Floyd sucks, Linden was the best thing to happen to the Chronicles, and that Harley riders are all repressed leather fetishists, and that's not going to bother me one little bit. I may try to convince you that I don't have a fetish, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you that your taste in literature or music is somehow incorrect.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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Post by Vraith »

Lord Zombiac wrote:
If your opinions on art can't be wrong, that implies they can't be right either.
tee-hee!
Horse-pucky.
I think Angelina Jolie is freaking weird looking.
If someone could scan my brain/mind patterns when I see her, they could objectively show that in the Vraith universe, she is a weird looking.
I know some [maybe lots] of peeps in the world don't like/believe it, but there IS such a thing as personal yet objective...more demonstrable than wholly subjective, short of pure fact/proof. More meaningful than isolated perception/sensation, less unforgiving than defying gravity.
It is fluid territory, and every square inch real aesthetic judgement lives there.
[spoiler]Sig-man, Libtard, Stupid piece of shit. change your text color to brown. Mr. Reliable, bullshit-slinging liarFucker-user.[/spoiler]
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Post by Cail »

Angelina Jolie is hideous.
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_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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Post by Lord Zombiac »

Cail wrote:Angelina Jolie is hideous.
True, but I would not kick her out of bed for eating crackers!
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Post by Cail »

Lord Zombiac wrote:
Cail wrote:Angelina Jolie is hideous.
True, but I would not kick her out of bed for eating crackers!
I wouldn't let her in the house, much less the bed.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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