Kevin's Watch

Jeez, Plissken, aren't you a little hard on people? Can't I just draw something to see how well I can do it without being lumped in with psychopaths??

Sure! (But you have to admit, there's nothing more self-obsessed than a first-year art student! I speak from personal experience, here!)

Good post Fist.

Wayfriend, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think children learn to be selfish, I think they're born selfish, and, as Fist said, learn (or more accurately, are forced,) not to be.

Does learning about ownership stop the child from wanting to take something that isn't theirs?

As soon as children become "self-aware", and lacking the experience and socialisation that provides knowledge of a greater external world, they are literally the centres of their own universe. Everything in that universe is considered only in terms of themselves. Their comfort, their happiness.

The refusal to share a toy for example: It may not impact on thier actual survival, but biologically, the toy makes them happy, and happiness is a reward for pro-survival behaviour.

"Instinct", for lack of a better word, tells them that they want to carry on feeling this way, and if it is the toy that is making them feel good, "instinct" is what makes them want to hang onto it.

Personally, I have a problem along the lines that Fist mentions. It's very hard to continously believe that every single person I ever see, hear, pass in the street, on the road, etc. has a completely independant existence from myself.

To constantly keep in mind that they are real people, with hopes, dreams, ambitions, problems, etc. is very difficult for me. (BTW, I've got empathy problems as well. Not problems in sharing perspectives, I can almost always see the other point of view, but I don't feel it.)

As Fist says, how can we prove that something outside of our perceptions, is more important than what we want? We can't. We have to take it on Faith. And its not inborn. We get taught it.

--Avatar

Plissken wrote:Sure! (But you have to admit, there's nothing more self-obsessed than a first-year art student! I speak from personal experience, here!)

I'll take your word for it!

Avatar wrote:Wayfriend, I'm not sure I agree. I don't think children learn to be selfish, I think they're born selfish, and, as Fist said, learn (or more accurately, are forced,) not to be.

Can you square this with the [apparent] facts, namely, that children are born very unselfish, and then they turn selfish as they get older? That it begins after they learn what is 'mine', and, particularly, what is 'don't touch that'?

I'll square it! My daughter started out as a self obsessed eating, sleeping, pooping, and screaming machine. It took weeks before she even bothered to notice that someone was meeting her feeding and ass-wiping needs, and weeks longer than that to recognise the people who met those needs most often. It was almost a freakin' year and a half before I could get the lil' biscuit to say "thank-you!"

The point is, children start out with only a concept of what they need, then work to self awareness, then awareness of others around them... A child that consistenly recognises her place in the world and the effect she has on others before the age of 8 is a rarity - one that puts others needs before his own before 12 (or 35!) is even more rare.

Children are born selfish - it's a survival trait. We teach them love, but any grins you get in the first couple of months just mean that the child needs to be burped - and get a towel for that, because the self-obsessed little cabbages don't give a damn about "dry-clean only!"

Oh. I see. Children who are intellectually incapable of understanding basic concepts are labeled by you 'selfish'.

I don't think you can call someone selfish (in the sense of being 'bad' or 'evil') until they are capable of making consequential decisions.

I suppose you would call someone 'forgetful' if they don't send you an anniversary card - even if you weren't married.

I think you might be assuming that I'm assigning some kind of moral value to the word "selfish". When it comes to young children, I'm not.

Let me try it a different way: When my nephew died, his parents and I were at his bedside. When his younger, pre-verbal brother came into the room he observed - probably for the first time - adults crying.

His reaction to this was amazing - He got me eye-level, grabbed me by the ears, and started giving me very careful kisses.

The thing is, this was a breakthrough for him - up until that point, his level of growth as a human being did not allow him to see others as more than either tools or obstacles. He just hadn't learned enough up until then to know that others needed kisses when they felt bad too.

Since then, that lesson has sparked new (sometimes misguided) behavior in him: The other day he stopped me as I was going to comfort his crying, slightly injured baby brother to give me a hug. Then he went to his brother and threw a scarf over his head - which is part of a very complicated and (to adults) incomprehensible game the two of them play. He was trying to cheer his little brother up, which was also a new development, and another step away from the inherent selfishness of infancy.

Selfishness becomes the moral problem we label "evil" when those who should know better than to be selfish (adults, for the most part) choose not to act on that knowlege. The "Fall of Man" myth in Genesis, with it's central issue of the knowledge of good and evil, and the CYOA behavior of the newly-fallen, is pretty instructive on the the subject.

Wayfriend wrote:Can you square this with the [apparent] facts, namely, that children are born very unselfish, and then they turn selfish as they get older? That it begins after they learn what is 'mine', and, particularly, what is 'don't touch that'?

I don't know what you mean by "born very unselfish"? Can you give any examples of behavior that demonstrates this?

And I disagree that children need to be taught what is "mine." I never made the slightest attempt to make my children think any toy was theirs. They just had toys, and enjoyed playing with them. But if another kid tried to play with it, mine would yell, try to take it away, and cry if they couldn't. I can't remember ever hearing otherwise from other parents.

WayFriend, I think Plissken covers it pretty well in his two posts, both of which I agree with.

Plissken wrote:I think you might be assuming that I'm assigning some kind of moral value to the word "selfish". When it comes to young children, I'm not.

Exactly. It's not a moral question, it's simply the fact that, being unable to understand the concepts which you mention, is what makes children selfish. And that selfishness isn't something "bad" per se, it's simply a natural outgrowth of the fact that children, especially very small children, can't concieve of anything outside of themselves.

They are the centre of the universe. Everything is theirs. As Fist mentions, it's not teaching them possession that's the problem, it's teaching them that others have the right to possess things too.

And in that light in fact, we return to my original question: Is selfishness "bad"? It serves a clear purpose insofar as fulfilling that "biological imperative" to survive. The first consideration is what they want (need to survive). Can that be wrong in and of itself?

--A

Selfishness in a fully formed adult is evil. Think about it: There is no such thing as an altruistic evil act.

On the other hand, our society is based on the idea of the sacrifice of self to the community - "Greater love has no man than this..."

So it's evil to act in your own interests?

And while there may be no such thing as an altruistic "evil" act, (which I'm not convinced about. Afterall, it depends very much on your perspective, doesn't it? Were Hitlers attempts on the behalf of a down-trodden Germany selfish? Was he actually a German altruist? His actions are seen as evil by history, by did he set out to be evil? Or was he trying to solve Germany's problems, as he saw them, as best he could?) that doesn't make all selfishness "evil" does it?

Is refusing to give a beggar money because you want to buy something for your child evil? Is it selfish?

--Avatar

well nowadays there is no one of knowing if the beggar needs help or not. it may be scam for cash or to get drug/drink money.

For me, evil can be defined quite simply as thus:

Any privation of good.

It's pretty straightforward, IMO.

Fist and Faith wrote:

Wayfriend wrote:Can you square this with the [apparent] facts, namely, that children are born very unselfish, and then they turn selfish as they get older? That it begins after they learn what is 'mine', and, particularly, what is 'don't touch that'?

I don't know what you mean by "born very unselfish"? Can you give any examples of behavior that demonstrates this?

And I disagree that children need to be taught what is "mine." I never made the slightest attempt to make my children think any toy was theirs. They just had toys, and enjoyed playing with them. But if another kid tried to play with it, mine would yell, try to take it away, and cry if they couldn't. I can't remember ever hearing otherwise from other parents.

My husband used to not get me gifts for my birthday. No big deal -- he just wasn't into birthdays, and I was OK with that. That all changed when my younger son was about 3 or 4 years old. When he discovered that Mommy didn't have a birthday present, he started crying. He then brought me all of his favorite toys and videos and tried to give them to me.

So, yes, children can be very altruistic, and very loving, and very generous.

Great story, duchess!! I've never read anything about this topic, I'm just going by my own experience, and what I hear. Now I've heard something else. (Furls told us a story about Stephen being remarkably unselfish, although he was, iirc, 8 at the time.) I wonder at what ages certain things typically happen. Would your son have done the same for a friend? A stranger? I'll bet he would have done something, although maybe a bit less than he did for his mother. As he got older, maybe he would have done the same for anyone. I don't know, just thinking out loud. But it sure shows a great deal of empathy on his part, eh?

My son is one year and 4 months. I am sure others have had this experience, but when our son is eating cheerios, for example, he will eat a few then feed them to one of of us (putting them straight into our mouth).

This shows at least that he understands the concept of sharing even at such a young age.

Mhoram, would you please give that definition in more detail. It may seem unnecessary to you, but I'm not really sure what you mean, and there are a few definitions for privation at dictionary.com.


dennis, are you saying it's evil to withhold money from a person who, through no fault of their own, is truly in need? If you are, do you have some sort of scale of evil? I'm thinking that it must be more evil to have put a person into a state of being in that degree of need.

Fist,

Mhoram, would you please give that definition in more detail. It may seem unnecessary to you, but I'm not really sure what you mean, and there are a few definitions for privation at dictionary.com.

Using dictionary.com, I find this definition most suitable:

2. An act, condition, or result of deprivation or loss.

Evil seems to me to be simply: A lack of that which is good.

Yeah Vector, that's such a cool thing! I have to force my 2yo to NOT feed me sometimes!

I think I'm learning something here. I still believe what I said about small children learning possessiveness and selfishness without it being taught to them is true. I'd be surprised if your or duchess' kids did not grab "their" toy back from a child who wanted to play with it, or came running to you instead.

But maybe kids are also learning to share on their own. Sometimes even at the same time - learning generosity (whether through empathy, or the fun of feeding daddy) with family, while not wanting to share with other kids.

Hmm, although my kids seem to hate sharing with each other more than they hate to share with anyone else! lol A new phenomenon that only my kids have? I think I'll name it... let's see... Ah! I'll call it sibling rivalry!!