Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:11 am**

Cambo wrote:Everyone has to learn to "just deal with it" eventually. No-one goes into that depression with you, and there's not always going to be someone there to hold your hand.

Exactly. You either deal with it, or you kill yourself one way or another.

It doesn't make it any easier, (not until you come to terms with the fact that you do have to deal with it at least), but it's still true.

Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
the wisdom to know the difference,
and the good luck not to screw up too often.

--A

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:40 am**

sgt.null wrote:
Cambo wrote:Can't speak for why Orthodoxy is against it.
well - i should stay out of this. but i can hazard that meditation is eastern philosophy and nothing that doesn't come from the orthodox church can't be right?

maybe rus will tell us why we are wrong.

I'm sure he will

. However, I have to point out that meditation is a practice, not a philosophy

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:03 am**

Cambo wrote:
sgt.null wrote:
Cambo wrote:Can't speak for why Orthodoxy is against it.
well - i should stay out of this. but i can hazard that meditation is eastern philosophy and nothing that doesn't come from the orthodox church can't be right?

maybe rus will tell us why we are wrong.
I'm sure he will . However, I have to point out that meditation is a practice, not a philosophy

i am sure being wrong has never stopped anyone from opining anyhow.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:10 am**

aliantha wrote:
rusmeister wrote:
Menolly wrote: I still think at least part of the answer is obtained by following ones spiritual center and link within. Regardless of whether one is a believer or not, find the stillness within and settle yourself there for twenty minutes a day or so, seeking whatever "spiritual stillness" you can.

It can't hurt, nu?
According to us, it can.
"Us" being the Orthodox church? In that case -- thanks, I'll make a note.

The note would have to include the 'why'/'how that can be so' to be of any use.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:50 am**

sgt.null wrote:
Cambo wrote:Can't speak for why Orthodoxy is against it.
well - i should stay out of this. but i can hazard that meditation is eastern philosophy and nothing that doesn't come from th eorthodox church can't be right?

maybe rus will tell us why we are wrong.

In an attempt to briefly explain from a layman's relatively simplistic view, attempting to tap into "spirituality" without Christ will basically tap you into demonic spirituality. You can have all kinds of experiences, visions, even learn things in mysterious ways - because certain spiritual forces are giving them to you. Opening your soul to whatever spirituality happens to be out there is a form of spiritual suicide (out of ignorance, generally speaking). A good illustration of that can be found in Lewis's "Space Trilogy" (Perelandra) when Weston calls upon 'the life force' to enter into him, and he is subsequently possessed - a frightening sequence.

‘You are still wedded to your conventionalities,’ said Weston. ‘Still dealing in abstractions. Can you not even conceive a total commitment - a commitment to something which utterly overrides all our petty ethical pigeon-holes?’

Ransom grasped at the straw. ‘Wait, Weston,’ he said abruptly. ‘That may be a point of contact. You say it’s a total commitment. That is, you’re giving up yourself. You’re not out for your own advantage. No, wait half a second. This is the point of contact between your morality and mine. We both acknowledge -’

‘Idiot,’ said Weston. His voice was almost a howl and he had risen to his feet. ‘Idiot,’ he repeated. ‘Can you understand nothing? Will you always try to press everything back into the miserable framework of your old jargon about self and self-sacrifice? That is the old accursed dualism in another form. There is no possible distinction in concrete thought between me and the universe. In so far as I am the conductor of the central forward pressure of the universe, I am it. Do you see, you timid, scruple-mongering fool? I am the Universe. I, Weston, am your God and your Devil. I call that Force into me completely ...’

Then horrible things began happening. A spasm like that preceding a deadly vomit twisted Weston’s face out of recognition. As it passed, for one second something like the old Weston reappeared - the old Weston, staring with eyes of horror and howling, ‘Ransom, Ransom! For Christ’s sake don’t let them -’ and instantly his whole body spun round as if he had been hit by a revolver bullet and he fell to the earth, and was there rolling at Ransom’s feet, slavering and chattering and tearing up the moss by handfuls. Gradually the convulsions decreased. He lay still, breathing heavily, his eyes open but without expression. Ransom was kneeling beside him now. It was obvious that the body was alive, and Ransom wondered whether this were a stroke or an epileptic fit, for he had never seen either. He rummaged among the packages and found a bottle of brandy which he uncorked and applied to the patient’s mouth. To his consternation the teeth opened, closed on the neck of the bottle and bit it through. No glass was spat out. ‘O God, I’ve killed him,’ said Ransom. But beyond a spurt of blood at the lips there was no change in his appearance. The face suggested that either he was in no pain or in a pain beyond all human comprehension. Ransom rose at last, but before doing so he plucked the revolver from Weston’s belt, then, walking down to the beach, he threw it as far as he could into the sea.

CS Lewis "Perelandra" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perelandra

Obviously, the complete context is much better. But there is no such thing as "neutral" spirituality, so whatever experiences you may have are a form of "prelest"

False spiritual knowledge leads to spiritual delusion (Russian prelest, Greek plani), which is the opposite of sobriety. Sobriety (called nepsis) means full consciousness and self-realization (enstasis), giving true spiritual knowledge (called true gnosis)

.

If the propositions of the Church are true, then logically it follows that messing with "spirituality" outside of the narrow path prescribed can only lead to our own ruin. There's nothing unreasonable about it.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:09 pm**

Actually, I gotta support rus here. The wider church actually has concerns about this sort of thing too. It's just not the thing you hear about it in a Sunday sermon - for many reasons.

In my experience, it follows a pattern like this:
When someone is in extreme emotional pain - and feels powerless - they are in a very vulnerable place.
(The hope of being loved living a life that is meaningful is SUCH a powerful need - and a valid one!)
I'd say it really parallels how when we humans are in extreme emotional pain, we often reach out to people who are bad for us - abusers or people who just want to use us - or substances that will at least numb it for a little while.
Well, in the same way, we sometimes reach out to the beings in the spiritual world who do NOT have our best interests in mind.

That said, I -don't- know what specific things individuals are -doing- when they meditate, and I'm pretty sure I'm not one of those Christians gifted in discernment of spirits.
So I am my no means going to claim to know what specific risks are involved, or whether or not any one here is touching a spiritual being outside of yourself.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:14 pm**

So much to say, so little time...

rusmeister wrote:
aliantha wrote:
rusmeister wrote: According to us, it can.
"Us" being the Orthodox church? In that case -- thanks, I'll make a note.
The note would have to include the 'why'/'how that can be so' to be of any use.

No, it doesn't.

To myself, I wrote:Orthodoxy prohibits meditation. Unless it's addressed to a specific, approved deity (a.k.a. God) or intermediary (a.k.a. a saint), in which case it's called "prayer" and is, in fact, encouraged.

There. Done.

And btw, I almost posted a prediction that your response would include a claim that meditation is an open door to being contacted by a demon. Seriously, dude, you are becoming *way* too predictable.

Linna, in Zen meditation, the idea is to turn off all conscious thought -- to "empty your mind". Any fleeting thoughts or feelings are not to be tamped down, but to be observed in a detached way. The idea is not to act on any thoughts or feelings that occur to you while meditating, but to realize that they are ephemeral -- and then to let them go.

How that can possibly be equated to demon possession is beyond me.

Posted: **Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:40 pm**

This is simply a matter of brand-recognition and your choice of terms: superiority, hegemony, fascism. Anything other than the one acceptable brand is off limits. It's the narrow part of the narrow path.

dw

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:25 am**

Rus' position is perfectly reasonable....given that one accepts Orthodox dogma.

The "demon possession" may even parallel certain dangers of meditation that the Buddhists get concerned about. Things like the ego resisting, yucky subconscious things getting dragged up, and at the extreme end "Kundalini blowouts" which is basically where you can tap into way more spiritual energy than you were prepared for, and it fries your mind like bad acid

.

Meditation isn't the mild, safe, health-spa activity most western media makes it out to be. That said, it's been one of the most positive activities I've ever taken up.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:36 am**

*shrug* It's like acid...you don't get anything out that wasn't in there already.

Me, I'm too ego-centric.

--A

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:28 am**

I'm too lazy.

Really, I'm just not motivated to meditate. I don't have any reason to do it. I don't feel whatever needs anyone feels that gets them to go through with such an endeavor. I'm interested to know what it would be like to strip all thought, sensation, and anything else, away, but not enough to go through with what is surely a serious and long process.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:54 pm**

Fist and Faith wrote:I'm too lazy. Really, I'm just not motivated to meditate. I don't have any reason to do it. I don't feel whatever needs anyone feels that gets them to go through with such an endeavor. I'm interested to know what it would be like to strip all thought, sensation, and anything else, away, but not enough to go through with what is surely a serious and long process.

If you're really interested, and the time and effort is the only thing stopping you, I suggest trying an isolation tank. Reproduces the effects of seriously high level meditation, within an hour. Haven't done it myself, but I've talked to people who have, and I'm itching to.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:58 pm**

An isolation tank was going to be my suggestion. Just don't try it while tripping, like a certain extremist I know...

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:18 pm**

Menolly wrote:An isolation tank was going to be my suggestion. Just don't try it while tripping, like a certain extremist I know...

What a trip that must've been.

Posted: **Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:38 pm**

*vigorously nodding*

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:23 am**

Isolation and tripping are generally a poor combination. While tripping is certainly not a Scouting activity, I have always applied the same buddy system principles to it that I espouse and practice for swimming and other activities where Guide to Safe Scouting calls for buddying up.

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:04 am**

Savor Dam wrote:Isolation and tripping are generally a poor combination. While tripping is certainly not a Scouting activity, I have always applied the same buddy system principles to it that I espouse and practice for swimming and other activities where Guide to Safe Scouting calls for buddying up.

had the boy scouts offered that merit badge - i would have stayed in longer.

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:18 am**

Yet, does not "Be Prepared" have considerable applicability?

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:21 am**

I love tripping alone. But I don't try and go anywhere or do anything when I do.

--A

Posted: **Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:04 am**

Savor Dam wrote:Yet, does not "Be Prepared" have considerable applicability?

many things about boy scouts actually apply here.

i only partook of the lysergic once. but it was EPIC!
now to find a place here to tell my tale. any suggestions?

Kevin's Watch

Depression