Kevin's Watch

It's just that I would think that someone that attention seeking and obnoxious would be hard to ignore.

Also Sin, I checked and it's definitely Albania. On page 655 of GOF paperback edition Voldemort says specifically deep in an Albanian forest.

I didn't read all 18 pages of this post, so I'll just chime in. As we all do, I have a million thoughts, but I'll share only a few.

Dumbledore can't be wrong about Snape - if he is, then his error will be what he is remembered for. I don't see JKR giving Dumbledore such a sad legacy.

Also, I posted some hastily written comments somewhere in this forum (that was full of spelling and grammatical errors) about why Snape is good simply because of his actions on the tower - when he killed Dumbledore. The initial poster of this thread is correct when he said that scene is LOADED with clues. The one that speaks loudest to me is this: Why would Snape, running for his life, stop to parry Potter's curses, AND give him instruction while doing so? For that matter, why did Snape finally teach students magic they could use in Defense of the Dark Arts, whereas they hadn't received anything valuable (aside from Harry's instruction) for the past several years. (What WAS Dumbledore thinking, btw? That may be a mistake of Rowlings...we'll see.)

Whether Harry lives or dies, it will have nothing to do with JKR retaining rights, or making sure that nobody else can write anything about Harry. If she made a decision based on that, it would be incredibly irresponsible and not at all germane to the story. So far, her decisions have been (at least, as far as I can recall), responsible.

That said, Harry will live. The first chapter of the first book is "The Boy Who Lived". She's not going to turn around and kill him. It would go against the grain of the story. IMHO. Most of us were hooked into HP by the *magic* that surrounded that little boy who lived. I just can't see him dying. He doesn't NEED to die, unlike Dumbledore, who I always knew was going to die. Wouldn't have guessed in a million years that Snape would have killed him though.

Snape loved Lilly. And Hermione said that the penmanship in the potion book beloning to the Half Blood Prince looked feminine. How often does JKR say things like that and have them be meaningless? That penmanship might have been Lilly's. Snape and Lilly were probably great friends as well, until that one horrible day: Snape's worst memory, when he reacted harshly out of embarassment.

If there's one person that can kill Voldemort, it's Snape. I'd say he's the second most powerful wizard alive. I could be wrong. He did seem deferential to Moody, but that could be for other reasons as well. How many other wizards or witches do we know that were as competent? That created their own spells, etc.

I agree with everything you said up til your last two paragraphs.

"Snape loved Lilly. And Hermione said that the penmanship in the potion book beloning to the Half Blood Prince looked feminine. How often does JKR say things like that and have them be meaningless? That penmanship might have been Lilly's. Snape and Lilly were probably great friends as well, until that one horrible day: Snape's worst memory, when he reacted harshly out of embarassment."

I believe the observation about the penmanship being feminine is saying something more about Snape or even its a hint that it was his mother's. It is highly unlikely that it was Lily's. First, Snape called her a mudblood in book 5 right after they took OWLs. It is unlikely that they were "great friends" after that took place. Second, since that particular book you don't get until year 6, it becomes even more unlikely that Lily had written in the book on account of the Mudblood comment. Snape was a loner at school, i believe that he loved Lily from afar.

"If there's one person that can kill Voldemort, it's Snape. I'd say he's the second most powerful wizard alive. I could be wrong. He did seem deferential to Moody, but that could be for other reasons as well. How many other wizards or witches do we know that were as competent? That created their own spells, etc."

I believe that Snape will be instrumental in Voldemort's demise, but him killing Voldemort defeats the prophecy. As much debate as their has been on the prophecy, the one thing that seems undeniable is that it's harry who must destroy voldemort or be destroyed by voldemort. Snape is definitely a powerful wizard, he may even be the second most powerful alive next to voldemort, but in terms of the story, i just can't see how he could be the one who kills voldemort.

storm wrote:I believe that Snape will be instrumental in Voldemort's demise, but him killing Voldemort defeats the prophecy. As much debate as their has been on the prophecy, the one thing that seems undeniable is that it's harry who must destroy voldemort or be destroyed by voldemort. Snape is definitely a powerful wizard, he may even be the second most powerful alive next to voldemort, but in terms of the story, i just can't see how he could be the one who kills voldemort.

:::can't believe I'm saying this:::

Unless Voldemort does kill Harry, and then Snape finishes Voldemort off as he's indulging himself in his victory...

storm wrote:

burgs wrote:Snape loved Lilly. And Hermione said that the penmanship in the potion book belonging to the Half Blood Prince looked feminine. How often does JKR say things like that and have them be meaningless? That penmanship might have been Lilly's. Snape and Lilly were probably great friends as well, until that one horrible day: Snape's worst memory, when he reacted harshly out of embarrassment.

I believe the observation about the penmanship being feminine is saying something more about Snape or even its a hint that it was his mother's. It is highly unlikely that it was Lily's. First, Snape called her a mudblood in book 5 right after they took OWLs. It is unlikely that they were "great friends" after that took place. Second, since that particular book you don't get until year 6, it becomes even more unlikely that Lily had written in the book on account of the Mudblood comment. Snape was a loner at school, i believe that he loved Lily from afar.

I don't think there's any question that Snape loved Lily, and that it was unrequited, but I think that they were friendly prior to the "mudblood" comment, and perhaps after. Given that calling Lily a mudblood was his worst memory, perhaps they weren't. BUT Lily has been painted as a kind and caring soul, one capable of seeing a person's true nature, and it's hard to imagine someone like that turning on Snape after that. The more we learn of her the more she reminds me of Hermione - good through and through.

Also, they were same year, so were in potions together, and Slughorn commented very frequently about Lily's proficiency. We know about Snape's proficiencies. It's difficult to imagine two people who had been friends before didn't find themselves friends again in Year 6, perhaps brought back together by potions. I could be wrong, but I can't think of any benefit to the story (trying to think as an author here) that Snape's mother would bring if that was her handwriting. I can, though, think of of great benefit to the story if that book was a collaboration between Snape and Lily - and that Harry used it. Slughorn isn't an idiot, so perhaps giving Harry the book wasn't an accident. In fact, I rather think it wasn't.

And wait - James used the Levicorpus spell on Snape in Snape's worst memory, didn't he? That would imply the book was used earlier. I don't have time right now to double check...but a spell that appears in a 6th year book being used in 5th year?

storm wrote:

burgs wrote:If there's one person that can kill Voldemort, it's Snape. I'd say he's the second most powerful wizard alive. I could be wrong. He did seem deferential to Moody, but that could be for other reasons as well. How many other wizards or witches do we know that were as competent? That created their own spells, etc.

I believe that Snape will be instrumental in Voldemort's demise, but him killing Voldemort defeats the prophecy. As much debate as their has been on the prophecy, the one thing that seems undeniable is that it's harry who must destroy voldemort or be destroyed by voldemort. Snape is definitely a powerful wizard, he may even be the second most powerful alive next to voldemort, but in terms of the story, i just can't see how he could be the one who kills voldemort.

You're probably right. But prophecies are fragile things, not to be trusted.

I definitely think Snape will play a huge part in Voldemort's demise.

I read through the first 10 pages of this thread, and I didn't see my theory brought up. And I intend to finish it, but I'm bored of reading the thread right now, and feel like typing. Sooooo.....

I think Harry's got a horcrux on himself, or whatever it is called. They've frequently said that when Voldy tried to take him out that he put a little of himself into Harry. Could it be underneath the scar or the scar itself? Think of when the scar has hurt. Harry has been getting a bit darker over the years...maybe he has been influenced. Then again, it's probably just his situation/teenaged years/and that there are so many people who want to do him harm.

But yeah...Quirrel had him in his head, or on his head, or whatever. Why can't Harry? It seems good storytelling as well as a good (and frequently used) metaphor to have a part of your enemy in you. And if this theory does turn out to be true, Harry's fate may not be a happy one. Then again, maybe not.

I haven't read the latest two books since they came out, but I'm rereading them now, and there are little clues that could make this correct. Emphasis on the scar, constantly comparing Voldy and Harry, etc.

From the beginning of reading these books, I felt like it was a bit of a rip-off plotwise of A Wizard of Earthsea, but Ursula K. Leguin. I loved this book, and haven't seen that Earthsea miniseries to know if it follows at all. But it seemed like Voldy is essentially like the shadow of Harry, to a small degree, and that in the end, they'll embrace and become one. And then I'll set the book down and pissed off. Or Harry sacrifices himself, removing the scar and dying to allow others to take Voldy down. There's where Snape could come into this in the end, and Harry won't seem such a wuss.

Just some ideas I'm tossing out.

This is one of the hottest topics of debate on all of the HP bulletin boards. I think most people are stepping away from the belief that he is, because Voldemort tried to kill him so many times.

Unless Harry is an *accidental* Horcrux. That Voldemort was planning on creating a Horcrux when he killed the prophesied infant, but when it backfired, all sorts of things went haywire and Harry lived AND became a Horcrux.

But then this means that Harry has to die for Voldemort to die, and I don't think Harry will die.

However, how the two are so closely linked - I don't know.

Mebbe Voldemort will be like Foul and be reduced...

But, that's what happened when he attacked infant Harry. I don't think Jo would go that way again.

I agree. She won't go that way. One or both will live - and I'm pretty sure Harry's living. As I said in an earlier post, you don't start a book with a chapter titled, "The Boy Who Lived", and then kill him at the end of the series.

The harry is a horcrux theory...if this were true, you have a huge problem. All the horcruxes have to be destroyed before voldy can be, so harry can't vanquish him if that's true. One conjecture i've seen...in the mugglenet theories book...is that there is a way to extract a soul from a person's body without killing them. If this were the case, Harry could be a horcrux, maybe Snape or Wormtail ends up showing him how to remove it, then he kills it and then goes after voldy. I still think its a stretch, but Jo killed DD in book 6 and i didn't believe she'd kill him before book 7, so who knows.

Well for Harry to trust Snapes and Pettigrew is a great stretch of the imagination even for us fans... much less for the author. Those two killed the people most important to him. So they'd have to talk fast and talk sure to get Harry to trust them.
Then again he could be in so much pain that he may not even care. But ultimately I think he'll come to the conclusion that Voldemort is the source of all his life's pain. All others (Death-Eaters) are just misguided followers of a madman.
By not killing his parents it would've meant a happier life, a life without the Dursleys, a life without worry of being killed every year while at school or not. A life without the notoriety and that blasted scar.
Perhaps there'd still be the "real-life" drama and the war against Voldemort and his followers and the Order of the Phoenix but Harry wouldn't have to play front row center stage in the middle of it all. Dumbledore would've seen Harry as an ordinary (but exceptional) student... much in the same way that Hermionie is... just gifted.

Not too much longer now, we'll all know.


Then do we do the dissections??

<--- has never gone into any of the dissection threads.

What all does it entail?

Harry as a Horcrux, makes for some interesting theorizing. Thing is, making a Horcrux is a complicated magical feat. You have to murder (with the intention and preparation for making a Horcrux). While certainly Voldemort did the murdering part, could he really have done the preparation by accident that made harry a Horcrux? Just sounds out there to me. Perhaps something reminiscent of a Horcrux, but, different, and I can definitely see a possibility that maybe Harry was born with James blue eyes, and the importance of his mother's green eyes, is that Lily put something of herself into Harry before she was killed.

Harry could still kill Voldemort, if he's a Horcrux, he would just need to destroy the remaining ones, and then fling himself and Voldemort into the Veil (The veil had to have been brought around for more than just for Sirius to fall through)

Since Voldemort was taking out "the prophesied one", I'd be willing to be that he was planning on making a Horcrux when he killed Harry.

IF Harry is a Horcrux, it would have to be because things went haywire when his spell backfired.

burgs wrote:Since Voldemort was taking out "the prophesied one", I'd be willing to be that he was planning on making a Horcrux when he killed Harry.

IF Harry is a Horcrux, it would have to be because things went haywire when his spell backfired.

Do we have any reason to believe Voldemort made any Horcruxes that late in life? I thought he was finished before then (although can't recall details)? He wouldn't want to make more and more, he would only want to make a set number of them, with each Horcrux, his remaining soul was depleted.

We don't know what all the Horcruxes are, so we couldn't know if he was finished or if he was still making more. Who knows. There's some speculation that Harry's Horcrux (the intended Horcrux from Harry's death) would have been #7, the number that Voldemort considers to be most "magical". How much more significant could the 7th Horcrux be than if it were created by the death of the one who was prophesied to defeat him?

Has anyone re-examined the gleam in Dumbledore's eye at the end of GoF, with Horcruxes in mind? I wonder if Harry's story of the ritual Voldemort and Wormtail used to give Voldemort his new body told Dumbledore something about wethre or not Harry was a Horcrux (Intentional or otherwise) and if Harry is a Horcrux unintentionally how that might serve as an advantage to Harry? What part of the story exactly is Harry relating when Dumbledore gets this gleam in his eye (I seem to remember it's when Harry is telling of Wormtail cutting him for "The blood of the enemy")

So, no one has a comment about the Gleam and how it might relate to Harry being a Horcrux?

I doubt that Harry can be a horcrux because then Voldemort would have to destroy his own soul in order to kill Harry and he intends to do just that. I don't think that horcrux making is a simple enough magic that you can make one "accidentally." Perhaps he WAS intending to make one after the death of Harry but I don't think the seventh horcrux exists.