How bad is it?

[Lord Zombiac]

Angelina Jolie is hideous.

True, but I would not kick her out of bed for eating crackers!

I wouldn't let her in the house, much less the bed.

What if she needed to use the bathroom really bad?

[drew]

Angelina Jolie is hideous.

True, but I would not kick her out of bed for eating crackers!

I wouldn't kick her out of bed for shitting.

[finn]

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank................................

I think I know what you meant here, but.....???!!!!

[thewormoftheworld'send]

No, it implies that to anyone other than the source of the opinion, they're meaningless. My opinion is my own, and it's right for me. It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me.

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank, and I'll do it regarding art as well.

Your opinions are obviously not meaningless to others.

That's their choice, isn't it though?

Look, you can tell me that you think Pink Floyd sucks, Linden was the best thing to happen to the Chronicles, and that Harley riders are all repressed leather fetishists, and that's not going to bother me one little bit. I may try to convince you that I don't have a fetish, but I'd be wasting my time trying to convince you that your taste in literature or music is somehow incorrect.

And?

[Cail]

And ultimately, I don't care what you think.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

And ultimately, I don't care what you think.

Ultimately, the Earth will be unfit for human habitation in about 1 billion years.

[Cail]

And ultimately, I don't care what you think.

Ultimately, the Earth will be unfit for human habitation in about 1 billion years.

[finn]

The Purpose..is...You..you're Humanity..your Feelings,Your Intuition,,your Imagination,,You. And as it is for Linden, so it is with the reader. The more one resists, the more one is filled with despair. Kevins Dirt IS the Logical and Reasonable.

I kinda like that.

[alanm]

right, have finished the book AATE and it is now on the book shelf where it will gather dust. I will wait for the last book but as things stand at the moment in my opinion the LC are a waste of my money. I just dont get how they follow on at all from the first 6 books which to my mind are a complete story. This latest sequel just does not fit in. I think SRD has lost the plot and has tried to flesh out the LC with so many new things that just dont fit and never will fit. I think if he wanted to make the LC fit better with the original 6 books then a wait of 25 years or so was not the best thing in the world to do.

and now we have another 2 years to wait for the last in the series.

It's hard to believe that Covenant failed to utterly defeat Foul twice, as Kevin failed in the past. And there is textual support for the idea that Foul can be rejuvenated by Earthpower - there was something in TWL about his existing on the "fringes" of Earthpower until his powers came back. This may have been a more slow, more difficult process of recovery with the new Staff of Law in the Land, but hardly impossible.

That was because the staff had been destroyed by white Gold but at the end of WGW we have a totally new staff so......

[Horrim Carabal]

It's hard to believe that Covenant failed to utterly defeat Foul twice, as Kevin failed in the past. And there is textual support for the idea that Foul can be rejuvenated by Earthpower - there was something in TWL about his existing on the "fringes" of Earthpower until his powers came back. This may have been a more slow, more difficult process of recovery with the new Staff of Law in the Land, but hardly impossible.

That was because the staff had been destroyed by white Gold but at the end of WGW we have a totally new staff so......

Foul regenerated himself after the Desecration as well, and the Staff existed then.

He is able to reconstitute himself from every diminishment (so far)...not sure how he does it. I do rememeber the passage mentioned about using Earthpower somehow. It makes sense, he seems immune to Earthpower and can Corrupt it...so using it to rebuild his strength seems a logical ability for him.

Whether or not the Staff of Law exists at a particular time is irrelevant in my opinion. Foul perverts Law, he doesn't break it.

What's interesting is that there is a perspective that could say that Coventant failed horribly twice now...instead of seeing the endings of TPTP and WGW as triumphs.

[TheFallen]

WHOA - I turn my back for a second and one of the best threads that I've seen on on KW gets a snowstorm of postings. Not that I've had the chance to go through *that* many threads, being very new to this messageboard, but hey... what fun!

The three following quotes entirely sum up my views:-

While Donaldson's writing in AATE has evolved naturally from his writing style in the past, it is without question different. Some of those differences I like, some I do not. If you want to boil it down to anything, boil it down to that.

Thank you Z - I'll need a longer bumper for that sticker but that to me is the concisely put and pithy truth of things. Well boiled down.

I don't need some pompous know-it-all to tell me why I like (or don't like) a certain book. I've explained very clearly why I think the LC are weak. I've expressed my disappointment after each of the last three books has been released.

My opinion is my own, and it's right for me. It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me.

What does bother me is people who think they know better than I. I argue against that mindset in the Tank, and I'll do it regarding art as well.

I could not agree more with Cail's stance - what he's saying is self-evidential... by the way, what and where is "The Tank"?

There IS such a thing as personal yet objective...more demonstrable than wholly subjective, short of pure fact/proof. More meaningful than isolated perception/sensation, less unforgiving than defying gravity. It is fluid territory, and in every square inch real aesthetic judgement lives there.

Now there's a typical thought-provoking post and one I'm minded to differ a little with . I really don't want to reduce everything to a Cartesian-style minimalism, because that would be facile. However, I think perhaps that for me, I'd have phrased Vraith's comment like this:-

There is such a thing as personal, yet reasoned and comparative... more demonstrable than wholly emotive, but still short of pure fact/proof.

It's still bound to be subjective (sorry, back to Descartes ) but it absolutely CAN be reasoned, validated by comparison with one's other personal experiences and fully justified within the boundaries of one's own Weltanschauung.

Angelina Jolie blah blah blah

In my opinion, pretty eyes, but I cannot ever get past the fact that her lips look like the engorged rump of a female baboon in heat. It's extremely off-putting and on this basis, those of you who find her compelling might want to ask yourselves some fairly disturbing questions.

Pink Floyd blah blah blah

Three and a quarter superb albums that have stood and will stand the test of time. Dave Gilmour ranks impossibly high in my personal all-time pantheon of guitar gods, possibly only matched by Jimmy Page and standing higher than either Billy Gibbons and Ritchie Blackmore, which takes one helluva lot of doing. I suspect this specific subject is one for the mysterious Tank and I'll take it over there as soon as someone tells me where that is (and hopefully before someone else starts mentioning Stevie Ray Vaughan or Slash - God help us all). I imagine it's a more suitable place to start a gunfight...

[alanm]

It's hard to believe that Covenant failed to utterly defeat Foul twice, as Kevin failed in the past. And there is textual support for the idea that Foul can be rejuvenated by Earthpower - there was something in TWL about his existing on the "fringes" of Earthpower until his powers came back. This may have been a more slow, more difficult process of recovery with the new Staff of Law in the Land, but hardly impossible.

That was because the staff had been destroyed by white Gold but at the end of WGW we have a totally new staff so......

Foul regenerated himself after the Desecration as well, and the Staff existed then.

He is able to reconstitute himself from every diminishment (so far)...not sure how he does it. I do rememeber the passage mentioned about using Earthpower somehow. It makes sense, he seems immune to Earthpower and can Corrupt it...so using it to rebuild his strength seems a logical ability for him.

Whether or not the Staff of Law exists at a particular time is irrelevant in my opinion. Foul perverts Law, he doesn't break it.

What's interesting is that there is a perspective that could say that Coventant failed horribly twice now...instead of seeing the endings of TPTP and WGW as triumphs.

I dont think it is irrelevant about the Staff. The Soothtell that TC took part in was very specific. Remeber that the Soothtell was conducted by a Raver so we have to believe what TC found out about LF and how he survived.

Well thats what I took from the book anyway. And so far the 3 books in the LC have not shed any light as to why LF survived. This is a sequel too far.

regards

Alan

[dlbpharmd]

TheFallen:

'The Tank' refers to the Think Tank, a forum for political discussion. Enter at your own risk.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=20

Three and a quarter superb albums that have stood and will stand the test of time. Dave Gilmour ranks impossibly high in my personal all-time pantheon of guitar gods,

You fuckin' rock, man! Check out the music forum, "Vespers," for more discussion on the greatest rock band of all time.

kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=18

[thewormoftheworld'send]

It's hard to believe that Covenant failed to utterly defeat Foul twice, as Kevin failed in the past. And there is textual support for the idea that Foul can be rejuvenated by Earthpower - there was something in TWL about his existing on the "fringes" of Earthpower until his powers came back. This may have been a more slow, more difficult process of recovery with the new Staff of Law in the Land, but hardly impossible.

That was because the staff had been destroyed by white Gold but at the end of WGW we have a totally new staff so......

Foul regenerated himself after the Desecration as well, and the Staff existed then.

He is able to reconstitute himself from every diminishment (so far)...not sure how he does it. I do rememeber the passage mentioned about using Earthpower somehow. It makes sense, he seems immune to Earthpower and can Corrupt it...so using it to rebuild his strength seems a logical ability for him.

Whether or not the Staff of Law exists at a particular time is irrelevant in my opinion. Foul perverts Law, he doesn't break it.

What's interesting is that there is a perspective that could say that Coventant failed horribly twice now...instead of seeing the endings of TPTP and WGW as triumphs.

Fleeing the destruction of his Creche, he had hidden at the fringes of the one power potent enough to heal even him: the Earthpower itself.
And this was possible because the Staff had been destroyed. The Law which had limited him and resisted him since the creation of the earth had been weakened; and he was able to endure it while he conceived new strength, new being. And while he endured, he also corrupted. As he gained stature, the Law sickened.

Later on, however, TWL says that the destruction of the Staff made the corruption of nature possible.

You are probably exaggerating those endings as Covenant's losses, the endings of TPTP and WGW were temporary triumphs. But what I'm saying is that each ending led inexorably to the next Chrons.

[thewormoftheworld'send]

That was because the staff had been destroyed by white Gold but at the end of WGW we have a totally new staff so......

Foul regenerated himself after the Desecration as well, and the Staff existed then.

He is able to reconstitute himself from every diminishment (so far)...not sure how he does it. I do rememeber the passage mentioned about using Earthpower somehow. It makes sense, he seems immune to Earthpower and can Corrupt it...so using it to rebuild his strength seems a logical ability for him.

Whether or not the Staff of Law exists at a particular time is irrelevant in my opinion. Foul perverts Law, he doesn't break it.

What's interesting is that there is a perspective that could say that Coventant failed horribly twice now...instead of seeing the endings of TPTP and WGW as triumphs.

I dont think it is irrelevant about the Staff. The Soothtell that TC took part in was very specific. Remeber that the Soothtell was conducted by a Raver so we have to believe what TC found out about LF and how he survived.

Well thats what I took from the book anyway. And so far the 3 books in the LC have not shed any light as to why LF survived. This is a sequel too far.

regards

Alan

Foul survived because he wasn't killed, only reduced in power. Remember, he is an immortal.

[Zarathustra]

LZ, it's possible I misunderstood your post. I don't feel like doing the usual quote-and-dissect on all the individual points. So I'll just agree to disagree, for the sake of brevity and Watch solidarity. I'm honestly not trying to go on the offensive here, I'm not attacking you (or Worm) I sincerely feel like my position is strictly defense against what I perceive to be unwarranted attacks on my (and others who have problems with the LC) opinion. If that is not your intention, fine. But realize that explaining other people's disappointment--even if you're just musing out loud for your own benefit--comes across that way. For instance, imagine if those who couldn't understand how people liked this book said something like, "I boils down to one thing: some people can't admit when their favorite artists falter." I suspect you'd take issue with that, and rightly so. Which is why I don't go there.

Vraith, I forgot exactly how you worded your description of your contribution here (page 15?), but I have no problem with it whatsoever. Countering complaints with examples of things you like, and asking if that makes a difference, is just good conversation, in my opinion. I've appreciated it. However, Aliantha is the only person who has actually changed my mind by doing this (see the stickied whole-novel discussion thread for that).

[Zarathustra]

The Purpose..is...You..you're Humanity..your Feelings,Your Intuition,,your Imagination,,You. And as it is for Linden, so it is with the reader. The more one resists, the more one is filled with despair. Kevins Dirt IS the Logical and Reasonable.

I kinda like that.

I like the point, but it's technically inaccurate, isn't it? KD is caused by SheWho. It is a product of her despair, not her reason. And I disagree for philosophical reasons. Logic/reason can be used to illuminate the beauty of the world, just as much as emotion can. The two go hand-in-hand, and when we try to suppress one part of our nature--we are also rational beings, afterall--we aren't being true to ourselves or the world. What's that quote Donaldson likes to use? Reason is the circumference of passion? I like that.

On second thought, Lurch has a point about resisting. If we're resisting a Truth--particularly an Unattractive Truth like mortality--then this will often lead to despair. I suppose people can try to "rationalize" their aversion to this truth, as Joan does, by finding a way to "make sense" of it. Joan's coping rationalization is to condemn the whole world with a theology of punishment. But that's not really reason. It's still emotion. It's not a rational rationalization. It's a nonsensical attempt at "making sense" of something. Really, I think "sense" and "reason" are misused in this context. The argument can only be made by using nontechnical, common sense (there's that word again!) meanings of these words.

Anyway, even if we accept the common sense meaning of "reason," "rational," and "making sense," we'd have to also accept that there is some Truth here that readers are resisting. Is it objectively True that AATE is a wonderful book? Of course not. Arguing for objective Truth in matters that are subjective is just a way to impose your own opinion upon others. That's more Kevin's Dirt than reason or logic.

[Lord Zombiac]

LZ, it's possible I misunderstood your post. I don't feel like doing the usual quote-and-dissect on all the individual points. So I'll just agree to disagree, for the sake of brevity and Watch solidarity. I'm honestly not trying to go on the offensive here, I'm not attacking you (or Worm) I sincerely feel like my position is strictly defense against what I perceive to be unwarranted attacks on my (and others who have problems with the LC) opinion. If that is not your intention, fine. But realize that explaining other people's disappointment--even if you're just musing out loud for your own benefit--comes across that way. For instance, imagine if those who couldn't understand how people liked this book said something like, "I boils down to one thing: some people can't admit when their favorite artists falter." I suspect you'd take issue with that, and rightly so. Which is why I don't go there.

Vraith, I forgot exactly how you worded your description of your contribution here (page 15?), but I have no problem with it whatsoever. Countering complaints with examples of things you like, and asking if that makes a difference, is just good conversation, in my opinion. I've appreciated it. However, Aliantha is the only person who has actually changed my mind by doing this (see the stickied whole-novel discussion thread for that).

That's right, I never meant to attack anyone's opinion. Most internet conflicts are the result of people (mostly me) posting words as though they were present and people could judge where they were coming from by my facial expressions, tone of voice, etc.,
Also we don't know each other and may misconstrue one another's motives. I've attempted to be light-hearted with this topic, and as I've said before, many criticisms of LC are legit.
I'm just rather forgiving of them because I had a hard time with some of the stuff in the other books too!
For me, none of it detracts from the great story and superb writing.

[SleeplessOne]

wow, passionate thread, one I hesitate to wade into.
Yet on the other hand I want to make a contribution simply to give a wider cross-section of opinion on the LC's.
I find myself agreeing with much of what is said in the thread, even when the posters have contradictory views on the merits of the LC's.

For example, speaking purely from my own perspective, i find myself partially agreeing with Worm's 'nostalgia' argument.
At various points in the LC's I have become frustrated and even, dare I say, bored.
I found myself pineing for the thrills and emotional punch of SRD's previous TC installments.
I found myself begrudgingly admitting to myself that these LC's weren't delivering what I'd come to expect from SRD.

But then came a moment when I truly re-connected with my original perceptions of the 1st six books, i.e. I recovered deeper memories of when I first read them.
I'd stopped reading LFB before TC left Revelstone as a kid and didn't try again til years later as an adolescent - and it was a pretty frustrating experience !
Of course I have come to love and cherish the character of Thomas Covenant as deeply as any ficitional character I have encountered - but whilst I was not entirely unsympathetic to TC's plight, I found his inaction and hostility was often off-putting. It took until half-way through TIW for me to truly start to understand TC's stance of Unbelief.
Of course, upon re-reads, I grasped his motivations much earlier in the story.
The 'psychodramatic' edge to SRD's writing has always been a prevalent aspect to his style imo, I really don't think he has amped things up as significantly as others seem to - in the previous books SRD delved deeply into the inner turmoils of Covenant and then Linden.

I also believe the pacing of the chronicles has frequently tried my patience upon first read - I recall being exasperated that around a third of LFB was basically a very long hike with Atiaran (who is took me a while to appreciate as a character, too) and TC.
However upon subequent readings of LFB I now find those chapters to be some of my favourites in the entire chronicles; perhaps because I came to know where the story was going upon re-reads I was more inclined to enjoy the journey rather than focus on the destination.
Others have mentioned, and I agree, that sections of WGW are glacially paced; there are still parts of that first section of that book which I skim. TPTP and TOT also have their lulls in my opinion.

As to the development of characters, I naturally find myself comparing the cast of the LC's to those of the previous books.
I reckon it took me a book and a half of the 2nd chrons to distinguish the subtle difference between the haruchai characters. Pitchwife, the First, Seadreamer and Honninscrave were pretty strong characters (although SRD's constant use of blade/sword analogies when writing the First grew tiresome imo), but there were a few of the Giants on the dromond who I never really developed a strong sense of; I could look up their names in the books now, but the point is I still get them confused.

After AATE I started looking forward to the prospect of a LC's re-read for the first time; there were a couple of moments that played out which SRD had foreshadowed subtley in the earlier books which gave me a kick, I reckon if I read the LC's again I will find more of these moments, especially upon conclusion of the story.
One little example : when Esmer first revealed the ur-viles had manufactured 'manacles', myself, like many on this board, speculated who they would, ahem, fetter.
I don't reckon many would have picked Esmer as the suspect at the time, but the whole arc now resonates more strongly with me; early on in FR, Esmer's 'aid and betrayal' personality disorder pushed him to the brink of handing Linden the key to his downfall. As we came to see in AATE, and throughout the LC's, he really loathed himself to the point that he believed his own death would be a mercy to himself and those around him. He has become one of my favourite TCoTC characters, which is a big call for me.
My main problem with the LC's, the biggest obstacle for me to overcome, is Covenant's absence for a large part of the story. It took me until about 3/4's of the way through ROTE to really feel it.
I was enjoying the ride and in the back of my mind had assumed he would turn up in the final few chapters - I now know he turned up in the final few words !
I never really bought Roger's glamour, and as such my frustration at TC's absence grew with FR, making it probably the hardest read of the chronicles so far for me.
When Covenant was finally restored in AATE, I read with guarded, suspicious interest; this was the test as far as I was concerned; could SRD still write the character consistent with what had gone before ? Of course he is a vastly different character now, but by the final few chapters I was deliriously relieved to find that SRD could still evoke TC - the scene with Branl and Clyme riding Ranyhyn, dragging him along between them by his arms, was somewhat hilarious, and consistent with the stubborn, hero/fool I have come to love.

Overall the chronicles, chronologically, grabbed me from the first when ROTE opened with a dazzling 'real-world' prologue, then proceeded to baffle and intrigue me as the stakes were laid out and the stage set once Linden materialised in the Land.
I enjoyed the introductions to Linden's company; Liand, Stave, Mahtiir & Esmer.
And in retrospect, the introduction of the Insequent via the Mahdoubt was more subletly handled than what I came to believe upon reading FR.
The time spent at the Verge of the Wandering, and Linden and Stave's experience with the horserite, dragged a little.
It was somewhat dismaying to find what had become of the haruchai, and healthsense, and even Revelstone seemed a little less austere - the Land wasn't what it once was in previous incarnations, be it the fragile and palpable beauty of the first chronicles or the abused, ravaged victim of the second. It was, as someone on this board cleverly said, 'scenery'.
Which was weird, this once-potent Land now inert and dulled.
Hints of an appearance by TC kept me going through the slower moments, and of course like many I became more frustrated when I started to suspect he might not actually appear at all.
I thought the little side-mystery of Anele's susceptibility to possession when walking on various surfaces to be a nice call-back to Drool Rockworm's tracking of TC via his boots in LFB.
Overall a frustrating book that left me wanting more ..
FR was were I really started questioning whether the LC's would deliver on my expectations. There were large sections where I actually found myself struggling to care - I just wasn't compelled by Linden's fight to free Jeremiah. I honestly knew from the get-go that TC was not all he appeared to be.
At various stages I suspected it was Roger, but I can't say I was really sure who it was, I just knew it wasn't TC - upon reflection I enjoyed SRD's writing of the disguised Roger, he really is a vicious, sadistic bastard.
But at the time I found it very frustrating and wanted the whole charade to be over with. The trip back to Berek's time didn't thrill me all that much either, and the conflict under Melenkurion Skyweir left me slightly underwhelmed, apart from the horrific image of the croyel munching on Jeremiah's neck.
And yet I probably preferred the first half of the book to the second.
Linden's conversation with Caerroil Wildwood was great, but once she returned to Revelstone, which by this stage seemed like nothing more than a boring hotel to me the stuff in Salva Gildenbourne really dragged.
It took until the company reached Andelain for the story to draw me in again.
Overall my memories of FR are somewhat tainted with my growing resentment that Covenant hadn't yet appeared in the story. I wonder, now that I know he actually does play a part in his own LC's, whether I would find a re-read of FR less frustrating ?
Finally, about 3/4's of the way through AATE, and after meditating on my entire Chronicles of Thomas Covenant reading history, I came to the conclusion that my experience reading this latest book closely mirrored my previous experiences, when I really thought about it.
There were some amazing moments (I bloody wish I hadn't spoiled quite a few of them for myself by reading these boards though, damn my self-restraint !), some baffling moments which may or may not prove portentious as the story continues, and some frustrating moments.

On the positive side, I already touched upon my simple delight that SRD ultimately proved capable of portraying TC in a manner consistent to my memories of him.
I found myself more readily accepting of the integration of the Insequent into the Land's history in AATE.
Unlike some I came to see the Humbled as individuals in their peculiarly haruchai way.
I argue that many of the previous haruchai characters have been defined more by their actions and beliefs than there words (Stave being the exception, he'd easily be the most verbose of all haruchai characters SRD has written).
For example, Hergrom we remember because he resisted the will of the Gaddhi, and Kasreyn's monocle-thingy, before heroicly facing Nom. I doubt he would had more than five lines of dialogue in those the 2nd chrons. Cail we remember as the haruchai who followed his heart and was outcast from his people, but for a large part of the 2nd chrons he was pretty nondescript. Branl and Clyme's journey with Covenant to confront Joan illuminated their characters somewhat - a morally righteous speech here, a shrug there, the lift of an eyebrow. And of course in true haruchai style there actions were decisive and vital to TC's victory. When they appeared alongside TC within the Fall it was one of those true 'holy crap !' SRD moments that I have come to crave.
That whole last section with TC confronting Joan was superb, as was the moment when Jeremiah freed himself from his autism, as others have mentioned.
Oh, and the croyel was bad-ass !

On the negative side, I agree with much which has already been stated in this thread.
Looong passages of inaction, recuperation and grave-making.
The chapter "Private Carrion" really got on my nerves, not only due to SWMNBN's drawn-out 'attack', but also because of SRD's constant reference to the imaginary bugs and creepy-crawlies that She's presence inflicted upon Linden. I had a similar problem with the formication/fire-ants/whiteland stuff with the Falls, the imagery was over-used.

Overall I'm happy to say I feel I have largely resolved my personal problems with the LC's, and expect - hope - that the conclusion will further enrich the overall journey.
It does bother me that I've yet to pinpoint a unifying theme with the LC's like I did with the previous books, particularly the first chronicles. Of course a story doesn't neccessarily have to work to a unifying theme to have value.
Anyway, I trust that all will be illuminated in the Last Dark ..

not a fan of Angelina Jolie either, fwiw ...

[ParanoiA]

Nice post, I definitely connect with what you're saying here.

The chapter "Private Carrion" really got on my nerves, not only due to SWMNBN's drawn-out 'attack', but also because of SRD's constant reference to the imaginary bugs and creepy-crawlies that She's presence inflicted upon Linden. I had a similar problem with the formication/fire-ants/whiteland stuff with the Falls, the imagery was over-used.

Quite disappointing because the formication features of SWMNBN and The Falls seemed to me to be a potential connection he would fuse later in the story. Now, it doesn't appear they have anything to do with each other except lack of imagination.

I don't know where I read this, or maybe it was one of SRD's interviews, but I recall him stating something along the lines of twist endings or surprises in a plot are best when an author does not *hide* information from the reader; that the best twists come from information the reader was given throughout the story but just didn't assemble - no doubt due to good redirection tactics for instance. So, I'm always looking for this in the text.