What is it you believe?

[Skyweir]

I agree with Z -- I think it surprising to believe there are no other intelligent beings in the universe but us! LOL

I don't believe there is any connection between human intelligence (or not, ... as the case may be) and the universe/universes.

Humans are so desperate to claim their standing as unique and wholly powerful - that we as individuals could affect the universe . Seems pure fantasy to me.

Clearly this is not a feeling or belief widely shared. And that's ok . who knows one day we as humans might learn more - that enlightens us as to any relationship between our existence and that if the universe within which we are harboured.

I don't believe the universe possesses sentience or will.. I think these are carry overs from ancient cultures who worshipped the Sun, stars, moon as deities. In an effort to explain their existence to some degree of satisfaction.

I think we have created gods to perpetuate superstitions and to explain natural and personal disasters as well as personal and natural benefits. God must not approve of this or that which is why this home was destroyed in bushfire or flood etc.

We have a need to attach meaning to things, events and occurrences where no meaning is necessary. You built your home in a bushfire prone location - every year you risk destruction.

There are often logical explanations for the things we experience in life. Soldiers suffered and died on all sides of all wars. Yet we like to claim God was on the victors side Obviously.

The holocaust occurred not because the Jews crucified Christ but because a crazy man offered this as justification for genocide. Because someone believed a thing doesn't make it true or logical.

mmm... perhaps not a popular view point .. but a view point none the less

[peter]

I have no problem with the tenacity of life side of the argument Z, but the hurdle that it must cross is the immeasurably infinitely impossibly small chance that it will start in the first place (and if by that mind numbingly minute chance it did, then multiplied by an equally improbable factor that it would develop in the direction of sentience and higher intelligence) . This coupled with (was it Dirac's statement of) "Where are they" leads me to thinking that they probably ain't out there at all.

(Edit just seen your post Skyweir - caught by the 'next page' post blindness again , and do agree with much of it. We certainly are the only species going that uses mass belief in fictions in order to instigate progress - without the unifying cause of belief in a common deity to worship and appease it is unlikely that social cohesion above the size of small tribe gatherings could ever have been achieved: certainly not the kind of cohesive effort required to say build Stonehenge.)

[Skyweir]

Interesting point Pete! Is it then part of the natural intellectual evolution of human beings? I guess we may never know.

I think you make a good point, religion has purpose and design - but to my limited understanding that design is of man, for mans purpises. Catholicism under the architectural devise of Constantine (and the establishment of the Niocene Council and resultant creed or religious compact) social control.

A factor shared across many religions. Thank you Pete - food for thought indeed

[peter]

It is an interesting idea Skyweir, and not just limited to religion. Juval Noah Harare goes into it in depth in his book Sapiens, which I can thoroughly recommend if you ever come across it.

[Fist and Faith]

The chances of life starting are indisputably not infinitely or impossible small. Know what I mean?

I don't believe the universe possesses sentience or will..

The universe possesses photons, gravity, stars, planets, water, chlorophyll, and a bazillion other things. Including life, sentience, and will.

[Avatar]

It has those things in it. That's not the same as possessing it in and of itself.

--A

[Fist and Faith]

I could say the same about me. My toe isn't sentient. (I have neuropathy, so it barely has feeling.) But there is sentience in me. It's up in my head. We don't control all that much of our bodies. Hell, we don't even have any idea what's going on in our bodies. Even doctors and others who study the body's processes don't control, or even feel, insulin being released, oxygen doing its work in a cell, DNA being unzipped, etc etc. I am sentient, even though I understand and control only a small fraction of my body.

The universe's sentience is on this planet. (Possibly elsewhere, but it doesn't matter. It's here.) How long will it be before we can direct/control the other parts of the universe as well as we now control the parts of our bodies?

Another way of looking at it is to think about telepathic beings from another reality. They like to look for other realities. They're like the aliens Z just described; they tap directly into sentience. They are only aware of other realities when their telepathy detects sentience. They know of our reality's existence because they detect sentience. Or maybe their sciences detected our reality long ago, but their telepathy couldn't detect it. But X years ago, they felt the Awakening.

[Skyweir]

The chances of life starting are indisputably not infinitely or impossible small. Know what I mean?

I don't believe the universe possesses sentience or will..

The universe possesses photons, gravity, stars, planets, water, chlorophyll, and a bazillion other things. Including life, sentience, and will.

I'd like to believe that - can you explain how it possess in and of itself sentience and will? No BS - I'd like to understand how it possesses will. Do you mean because there are living things within the universe F&F? Is it a vicarious possession - through the beings within it that are sentient and possess will?

Or do you believe the universe is a single entity - and that entity is a conscious sentient entity, in and of itself?

Or do you think that there is a mighty "being" (aka god) that is in "control" of the multiverse? That's interesting - because if there are infinite universes, what can oversee them all - making our relevance somewhat dubious.

[Skyweir]

I could say the same about me. My toe isn't sentient. (I have neuropathy, so it barely has feeling.) But there is sentience in me. It's up in my head. We don't control all that much of our bodies. Hell, we don't even have any idea what's going on in our bodies. Even doctors and others who study the body's processes don't control, or even feel, insulin being released, oxygen doing its work in a cell, DNA being unzipped, etc etc. I am sentient, even though I understand and control only a small fraction of my body.

The universe's sentience is on this planet. (Possibly elsewhere, but it doesn't matter. It's here.) How long will it be before we can direct/control the other parts of the universe as well as we now control the parts of our bodies?

Another way of looking at it is to think about telepathic beings from another reality. They like to look for other realities. They're like the aliens Z just described; they tap directly into sentience. They are only aware of other realities when their telepathy detects sentience. They know of our reality's existence because they detect sentience. Or maybe their sciences detected our reality long ago, but their telepathy couldn't detect it. But X years ago, they felt the Awakening.

Ok so the toe example - that's analogous for elements that make up universes that are parts - that don't need to be sentient to function. And that function may be .. for example ... "breathing"/oxygenating? Processing sugar etc. Ok I think I'm following this argument.

Next .. the universes sentience is on this planet? In the creatures that navigate their survival .. including humans? Or is it just humans? We are the universes sentience? So that's where I come unstuck. So if we function as sentient beings? How do sentient beings on this planet affect the universe? And what do we mean by the universe?

I understand the alien scenario the least. You're positing this as an example, or is it to be interpreted more literally?

[Zarathustra]

I believe, like Nagel, that because reductive materialism makes life seem like a vastly improbable accident, that it is not a good explanation for something that is so ubiquitous on earth. Therefore, I think there is something about the universe that makes life not only possible, but inevitable (given the right conditions ... which seem to be on innumerable worlds, given the discovery of 1000s of exoplanets). And that "something" also drives life to intelligence/sentience. And that "something" might be a "life principle" or even, in some sense, a mental property to matter itself. That doesn't mean the universe itself is a conscious entity, but that a kind of "proto-consciousness" is simply part of matter, and this property is enhanced and magnified in living beings. In fact, it drives matter to form them.

However, none of this is necessary for the scenario I described above. Aliens could become so advanced that their consciousness simply spans the universe. Maybe it happens through technology. Or maybe it happens because they have figured out the nature of reality to a much deeper level, and can tap directly into the extra dimensions of space and transcend their locations. It's pointless trying to imagine how a billion year old society could overcome their limits. They would likely be limitless.

If we've figured out how to share our thoughts and feelings all the way around the earth (we're doing it right now!) in a few decades, a billion years makes universal "telepathy" seem inevitable.

[Fist and Faith]

Next .. the universes sentience is on this planet? In the creatures that navigate their survival .. including humans? Or is it just humans? We are the universes sentience? So that's where I come unstuck. So if we function as sentient beings? How do sentient beings on this planet affect the universe? And what do we mean by the universe?

We affect the universe every moment. Are you thinking we do not affect things significantly enough to be worth considering? In the VAAAAAAAAAAST scheme of things, does a single star, or an entire galaxy, affect the universe is a significant way? And I'll bet we can come up with ways to affect the universe as much as a galaxy does. If we don't blow ourselves up first.

I understand the alien scenario the least. You're positing this as an example, or is it to be interpreted more literally?

Just a thought experiment. Such aliens might not see the difference, or the significance of the difference, between a sentient universe and a universe with sentient beings in it that you see.

[Zarathustra]

The Last Question, by Isaac Asimov

[peter]

Every time I breath, every time a butterfly flaps it's wings the universe is affected by it and changed by it; it is a different universe thereby and on the scale of the universe's totality the stellar explosions of Super Novae are of little more significance in their effect.

But sorry guys - I take issue with the super advanced telepathic entities that you postulate as being omnipresent throughout the cosmos. We are that close, that close, to getting to the fundamental understanding of our physical universe that the existence of such fantastical powers can all but be ruled out. There simply isn't the room left to fit them in. There would have to be whole forces, whole areas of the physical make-up of being that we had missed, and there simply isn't. Any advanced entities would be constrained by the same physical laws that constrain us and we'd see them. I repeat, where are they?

[Skyweir]

Digesting and thinking

[Fist and Faith]

I'm not suggesting such aliens exist, peter. It doesn't matter. I'm just using the idea as a way to look at our sentience.

[Zarathustra]

Peter, nothing can be ruled out. Surely the nature of the universe can't be utterly solved in the span of a century or two. The process of explanation is infinite ... remember?

I am not saying I believe in this scenario. I'm just following the logic of Drake's equation.

For a long time, we *knew* there had to be exoplanets. But we couldn't find any. One could have asked, "Where are they?" Such a question wouldn't have eliminated the possibility of exoplanets. They're literally everywhere. Ubiquity is not mutually exclusive to opacity. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they're not out there. The universe is a big place. They might have good reasons to hide themselves. They might be to us like we are to bacteria: orders of magnitude more (both in size and intelligence), and invisible because of it.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

… I think there is something about the universe that makes life not only possible, but inevitable (given the right conditions ... which seem to be on innumerable worlds, given the discovery of 1000s of exoplanets). And that "something" also drives life to intelligence/sentience. And that "something" might be a "life principle" or even, in some sense, a mental property to matter itself. That doesn't mean the universe itself is a conscious entity, but that a kind of "proto-consciousness" is simply part of matter, and this property is enhanced and magnified in living beings. In fact, it drives matter to form them.

However, none of this is necessary for the scenario I described above. Aliens could become so advanced that their consciousness simply spans the universe. Maybe it happens through technology. Or maybe it happens because they have figured out the nature of reality to a much deeper level, and can tap directly into the extra dimensions of space and transcend their locations. It's pointless trying to imagine how a billion year old society could overcome their limits. They would likely be limitless.

[…]

For a long time, we *knew* there had to be exoplanets. But we couldn't find any. One could have asked, "Where are they?" Such a question wouldn't have eliminated the possibility of exoplanets. They're literally everywhere. Ubiquity is not mutually exclusive to opacity. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they're not out there. The universe is a big place. They might have good reasons to hide themselves. They might be to us like we are to bacteria: orders of magnitude more (both in size and intelligence), and invisible because of it.

There seems to be very little space, other than the purely stipulative, between this and traditionally-conceived (at least, as conceived in pagan antiquity and in the Catholic framework) angelic/spiritual beings.

[Fist and Faith]

That reminds me of a conversation on Northern Exposure between Ed and Joel.

[Zarathustra]

+JMJ+

_ I think there is something about the universe that makes life not only possible, but inevitable (given the right conditions ... which seem to be on innumerable worlds, given the discovery of 1000s of exoplanets). And that "something" also drives life to intelligence/sentience. And that "something" might be a "life principle" or even, in some sense, a mental property to matter itself. That doesn't mean the universe itself is a conscious entity, but that a kind of "proto-consciousness" is simply part of matter, and this property is enhanced and magnified in living beings. In fact, it drives matter to form them.

However, none of this is necessary for the scenario I described above. Aliens could become so advanced that their consciousness simply spans the universe. Maybe it happens through technology. Or maybe it happens because they have figured out the nature of reality to a much deeper level, and can tap directly into the extra dimensions of space and transcend their locations. It's pointless trying to imagine how a billion year old society could overcome their limits. They would likely be limitless.

[_]

For a long time, we *knew* there had to be exoplanets. But we couldn't find any. One could have asked, "Where are they?" Such a question wouldn't have eliminated the possibility of exoplanets. They're literally everywhere. Ubiquity is not mutually exclusive to opacity. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they're not out there. The universe is a big place. They might have good reasons to hide themselves. They might be to us like we are to bacteria: orders of magnitude more (both in size and intelligence), and invisible because of it.

There seems to be very little space, other than the purely stipulative, between this and traditionally-conceived (at least, as conceived in pagan antiquity and in the Catholic framework) angelic/spiritual beings.

This difference is natural vs supernatural. Also, existence within the universe vs outside it.

Our belief in angels, gods, and demons may have come from a misinterpretation of an alien visitation. The similarity is due to a mistake.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

_ I think there is something about the universe that makes life not only possible, but inevitable (given the right conditions ... which seem to be on innumerable worlds, given the discovery of 1000s of exoplanets). And that "something" also drives life to intelligence/sentience. And that "something" might be a "life principle" or even, in some sense, a mental property to matter itself. That doesn't mean the universe itself is a conscious entity, but that a kind of "proto-consciousness" is simply part of matter, and this property is enhanced and magnified in living beings. In fact, it drives matter to form them.

However, none of this is necessary for the scenario I described above. Aliens could become so advanced that their consciousness simply spans the universe. Maybe it happens through technology. Or maybe it happens because they have figured out the nature of reality to a much deeper level, and can tap directly into the extra dimensions of space and transcend their locations. It's pointless trying to imagine how a billion year old society could overcome their limits. They would likely be limitless.

[_]

For a long time, we *knew* there had to be exoplanets. But we couldn't find any. One could have asked, "Where are they?" Such a question wouldn't have eliminated the possibility of exoplanets. They're literally everywhere. Ubiquity is not mutually exclusive to opacity. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they're not out there. The universe is a big place. They might have good reasons to hide themselves. They might be to us like we are to bacteria: orders of magnitude more (both in size and intelligence), and invisible because of it.

There seems to be very little space, other than the purely stipulative, between this and traditionally-conceived (at least, as conceived in pagan antiquity and in the Catholic framework) angelic/spiritual beings.

This difference is natural vs supernatural. Also, existence within the universe vs outside it.

Our belief in angels, gods, and demons may have come from a misinterpretation of an alien visitation. The similarity is due to a mistake.

According to the "traditional" conception, Angels are part of creation, and so, are considered "natural" (though the term "preternatural" can often be used) and existent "within the universe".

At any rate, I wasn't calling you out. Quite the contrary, actually. Just thought the correspondences interesting, is all.