Kevin's Watch

Posted: **Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:59 am**

Hmmm....I like Nazi's, but I like Communists too. But which is better - theres only one way to find out. FIGHT!
(Sorry American chums - that is a particular little bit of humor that only Brits (and only even a particular set of those) will understand, so just carry on as if the post isn't here).

Posted: **Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:02 pm**

TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:If Covenant's first journey to the Land had been during the Sunbane, why would he have cared to save the Land which to him would have been just a hallucination nightmare?

Everything is the way it is for a reason.

One day when I have plenty of time and nothing else to do I'm going to read this thread from start to finish just for the fun of it (probably after the final book comes out just to see how it all fits in), but in the meantime I was just scanning a few entries and spotted this one from WOTWE. I'm sure it was answered at the time but did SRD then have the three trilogies mapped out in his head at the time of writing the first set of books. I always understood that the first three were stand alone and that it was only at the prompting of Lester Del Ray that Donaldson developed the second Chrons. Wasn't the dedication of the Wounded Land 'Lester made me do it'. Incidentaly - the lack of intervening history has never been a problem for me because i) clearly TC and Linden even more so would know nothing of what had occured in the intervening years between their visits and would therefor have to dicover what significant elements of the lands history they could, as do we. ii) When the gaps between visits run into thousands of years as these do it is just not possible to render a complete history of events in any meaningfull way. We are talking about time intervals that would span the whole of our human recorded history and more besides and so in the face of this it is better to exercise the licence of not making the attempt, and just providing the salient points on a need to know basis.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:36 am**

peter wrote:When the gaps between visits run into thousands of years as these do it is just not possible to render a complete history of events in any meaningfull way. We are talking about time intervals that would span the whole of our human recorded history and more besides and so in the face of this it is better to exercise the licence of not making the attempt, and just providing the salient points on a need to know basis.

Two or three thousand year gaps are not equal to "the whole of human recorded history". Two thousand years takes us only to the birth of Christ, three or four thousand years takes us back to Middle Kingdom Egypt. Both are well within human recorded history, which is approximately 6500 years long, maybe a bit more.

I know what you are getting at here but the argument isn't quite as strong as you are making it out to be.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2011 12:13 pm**

I could well be wrong Horrim Carabal, but I thought the gaps between visits to the land equated to ten or so thousand years. If indeed your figures are correct then certainly it affects the validity of my assumptions - though as you say to a lesser extent they still apply. The contention of point i) that we are left pretty much in the same situation as TC and LA does I think hold water. There does not appear to be much in the way of an organised recorded history going on in the time of either the Clave or the Masters (and indeed if there was we can assume that it would have been twisted beyond all recognition to fit the manipulative ideologies of those bodies) and so great periods of blank knowledge re the Lands history in the intervening years are to be expected.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:33 pm**

peter wrote:I could well be wrong Horrim Carabal, but I thought the gaps between visits to the land equated to ten or so thousand years. If indeed your figures are correct then certainly it affects the validity of my assumptions - though as you say to a lesser extent they still apply. The contention of point i) that we are left pretty much in the same situation as TC and LA does I think hold water. There does not appear to be much in the way of an organised recorded history going on in the time of either the Clave or the Masters (and indeed if there was we can assume that it would have been twisted beyond all recognition to fit the manipulative ideologies of those bodies) and so great periods of blank knowledge re the Lands history in the intervening years are to be expected.

I'm with you here. The gap is 3700 ish years each. We know hardly anything about 3700 years ago, and we [historical 'we'] did a heck of a lot more writing, artifact making, and building, and had nothing like the isolation/destruction in those gaps. Desecration and Sunbane. And for instance, a fair amount of what we know about egypt is because of the greeks, and what we know of them is because of the romans. Kevin's Wards were an attempt at this...and didn't really work out.

Posted: **Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:44 pm**

peter wrote:I could well be wrong Horrim Carabal, but I thought the gaps between visits to the land equated to ten or so thousand years. If indeed your figures are correct then certainly it affects the validity of my assumptions - though as you say to a lesser extent they still apply. The contention of point i) that we are left pretty much in the same situation as TC and LA does I think hold water. There does not appear to be much in the way of an organised recorded history going on in the time of either the Clave or the Masters (and indeed if there was we can assume that it would have been twisted beyond all recognition to fit the manipulative ideologies of those bodies) and so great periods of blank knowledge re the Lands history in the intervening years are to be expected.

Yes I agree with you to a point.

I believe the maximum distance between Covenant's trips to the land is the 3000-4000 years between TPTP and TWL.

Vraith wrote:a fair amount of what we know about egypt is because of the greeks, and what we know of them is because of the romans.

The last part is almost certainly incorrect. The Greeks left thousands of pieces of their original texts. No Roman translations necessary.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:09 am**

peter wrote:
Lord Zombiac wrote:
Seriously though, I have a problem with the 'downsizing' of the WOTWE in the Last Chrons against the way it was depicted at the end of the One Tree. In this book, though I cannot be sure it was stated as such, we had an Idea of the Worm lying within the world like a chick within it's egg, and that were the Worm to rouse it would slough off the outer layer that had gathered around it forming the world, to cataclysmic and almost instant effect thus ending the world and all that existed on it. Now however it appears that the worm was in fact some form of grub that cruises around chewing up worlds piecemeal from inside like a maggot within an apple. Hardly consistent in my minds eye with the terrifying cosmic being that cruised through the universe cutting a swathe through stars and galaxies and swallowing worlds whole - still, perhaps I just got it wrong.
Sorry - going back a bit, but I was just struck by this line..
Wouldn't that be something? Imagine if the Worm of the World's End is like a colossal maggot, grub or caterpillar? I understand there has been a lot of transformations in the series so far, but for the Worm itself to transform into something wonderous and beautiful is an idea I like.
At any rate I didn't really feel any discontinuity in that the Worm was, well, as big as the himalayas instead of being, well, slightly smaller than the world. That the thing truly exists is itself an amazing revalation.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:10 am**

Orlion wrote:
TheWormoftheWorld'sEnd wrote:
peter wrote:How bizarre! The thread seems to have stopped in it's tracks after weeks of vituprative infighting in which no quater was asked or given
. Perhaps the effect of a little much needed humor into the proceedings. or perhaps (and more likely) an exhausted pause in an ongoing war of atrition!
It's only bizarre if it goes on for weeks without mentioning Hitler or Nazis.
Well, that's because folks who don't like AATE are Communists

Hey, I LOVED AATE, dammit!

Though technically I'm more of a socialist.. But whatever.

Posted: **Fri Apr 01, 2011 3:47 pm**

It's the best one since White Gold Wielder. I'm not sure where I rank them relative to one another, but it's up there with WGW and The Wounded Land.

Horrim Carabal wrote:Yes I agree with you to a point.

I believe the maximum distance between Covenant's trips to the land is the 3000-4000 years between TPTP and TWL.

3500 years approximately for each gap between series. Donaldson always had a rule of thumb of 1 day = 1 year for the Land.
As for recorded history, there are civilisations on earth within the last 2000 years we know almost nothing about. We don't know where the Huns came from before they arrived in Europe in the late Classical/early Medieval era, for example, and our only records of them are written by their enemies in Europe.

Posted: **Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:33 pm**

Murrin wrote: As for recorded history, there are civilisations on earth within the last 2000 years we know almost nothing about. We don't know where the Huns came from before they arrived in Europe in the late Classical/early Medieval era, for example, and our only records of them are written by their enemies in Europe.

True, but we also know at least a bit about the pre-Old Kingdom Egyptians and the Indus hunter/gatherers, both circa 6500 years ago.

Posted: **Sun Apr 03, 2011 8:15 am**

What about the Cimereans (of Conan fame) - weren't they a real people that we don't know much about. And perhaps the Khazars. Also we have these archeological ruins all over the world where we have no or little knowledge of the peoples who constructed the buildings eg the Zimbabwe ruins. I think many of these cases would fall well within the time that history is well documented for other parts of the world - and yet nothing is known about these peoples. ie History is not a uniformly recorded document, but is patchy and partial even at best.

Posted: **Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:16 pm**

ok finished AATE and have to say i think its the best of the LCs partly because TC returns and starts to get involved and partly because i like all the epic convergences i.e SWMNBN.
I think because of the backward written plots things tend to speed up as things go so book 4 should really pick up the pace..fingers crossed!
Have to say i read RoTE and FR with very little emotional register and only when the dead were involved and much could be said of AATE with one notable exception,

Spoiler

i cant believe he killed Elena AGAIN!

i actually put the book down for 2 days stunned that one of my favourite characters would be abused so badly, how many thousand years has she suffered for a mistake that TC helped to bring about?!
i think thats very telling as im struggling to have any emotional connection to the new characters, Elenas plight tugs at heart strings over 24 years old showing that i really connected to that character and TIW
Too be honest most of the characters i cared about were from 1st chronicles, there were so many and i think it was to do with the land being THEIR world with TC (and me) being the visitors feeling their love and hope for the land. The other characters drove the quests and events dragging TC behind them which i felt helped the escapism and otherworldliness of it. i felt drawn in, i think that is the definition here. i FELT whereas with the LC i THINK which is probably intentional on SRDs part as he intellectualises the story. As much as i appreciate and find the plot twists and connections interesting its the emotional aspect that got me hooked 24years ago so its harder for me to adjust although im doing my best and wont give up till ive finished TLD!!!!!
so far i agree theres a lot of things to resolve in 1 more book, its taking its time to get there. i wont criticise too much as i want to give SRD the benefit of the doubt when it comes to everything making sense eventually, i have to trust him to deliver a stonking last book.
As far as the nostalgia goes, i don't agree. i had a similar experience with the starwars prequels and i desperately wanted to like those, having said that i thought ROTS was a pretty good movie but noone can say that they live up to ESB.
This sort of thing happens in Art all the time, musicians hit and miss, moviemakers hit and miss, artists hit and miss, authors hit and miss. What everyone must take into account (this is a theme in the books too) is that nothing is the product of one person, editors, producers, screenwriters, mixers, publishers etc all have a hand in shaping the end product. sometimes its a moment when all of these click that produces "ok computer" or "Rocky" or "the Illearth War".

Posted: **Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:50 am**

I would like to give johhnyredleader a 'goodpost' tick here but I can't find the button!

I think the point about the first Chrons making you 'feel' where the last make you 'think' sums it up beautifully and may well indeed have hit on the fundamental difference in our charachters (and in our subsequent responses to the Last Chrons) that has resulted in such polarised oppinions as have been expressed in this thread. I would definitely fall into the 'feeler' catagory and thus my response to the last chrons has been 'difficult' (shall we say) - others, the 'thinkers' will have found the move into a more intospective writing style a positive thing and their response to the LC will be correspondingly more positive. This is simplistic I am aware but I do feel that at a deep level there may be some truth in it.

Posted: **Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:26 pm**

Thanks my man

To be honest when i first started reading the series i actually wasn't that impressed. it felt like pretty standard fantasy fare
Then he rapes a nice friendly girl that had been nothing but kind to him…instant emotional reaction….
when he sees Atiaran the morning after that fateful night of the rape..i froze with him thinking ohhh crap…on the edge of my seat all the way until Triock appears…ohh crap ..now he's going to get it….He bumps into Trell in Revelstone…..oh crap he raped his daughter!!! ….. the moment Elena tells him she has ridden Ranyhyn …i thought ohh crap its his daughter!!!!
The whole of the 2nd half of TIW with Elena and TC was a constant emotional journey, touching, confusing, heartbreaking and eventually devastating. when she asked him "was there ever a time you loved me?" i literally started crying. "yes i loved you!" i love you now!" come on!!!!!! yes im embarrassed about writing this, but it moved me, it was dramatic stuff. shakespearean. Hile troys emotional reaction to Elena plight echoed mine!! then he was turned into a tree before he could act!!! No!!!!!! i literally wanted to wrestle my way into the book …Do something!!!!!!
then when in TPTP when Covenant bumps into the old woman in Mithil stonedown and she says "have i changed that much?"…the same holy crap its Lena and that sense of revelation, anticipation and oh god i cant look!!! how will he deal with this!!! does she know Elena is dead?!!!
When Bannor lets slip that Elena is dead in the ramen enclosure and Lena asks what does he mean Elena has fallen?…i literally said holy crap out loud…
When he bumps into Triock outside Morinmoss knowing Lena is dead …oh crap how are you going to tell him TC? you raped the love of his life, helped his daughter die and now your going to tell him Lena died too…real edge of your seat emotional engagement.
SRD kept this stuff coming i was emotionally driven and engaged throughout. revelation after revelation and i loved how covenant kept finding himself in these situations despite his best efforts not to get involved, it was all the essence that keeps people hooked on soap operas but with a great story, epic plot and fresh imagination behind it. Mhoram, the genocide at Seareach, foamfollower, the Ranyhyn, the epic quests were all great background stuff to the central emotional drama of Covenant and his impact on one family. Yes it wasn't as cleverly written and the plots werent as intricate or interwoven but as is so often the case less is definitely more.The first series was genius. To me at least.

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:57 am**

Can't help but be with you all the way on your comments above JRL. Donaldsons supreme skill is to heap one thing onto another, onto another, onto another etc until your head is reeling - but to do it in a way that holds together and avoids the (very real) danger that the whole edifice could colapse like a deck of cards - almost like one of Jeremiah's sculptures.

Can I ask, Jonnyredleader - At what stage of their development did you first encounter the Chrons. ie Was it at the very beginning when only the 1st Chrons were published and we had no idea that a second trilogy would be written, or were all six books of Chrons 1 and 2 around by then. Perhaps indeed the third series was underway and allready on the shelves by the time you discovered the Chrons. I am old enough to be in the first grouping and I think this inevitably colors my view of the Last Chrons. By the time of the release of TROTE twentyfive plus years had passed sinse the release of the second Chrons and probably thirty since the first. I think by that time the nature of those books had been set in stone in my head to the point that the third were always going to struggle to match up. I would love to talk to someone who discovered the chrrons only very recently and whose take on the first two series would be as fresh as their take on the third.

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:37 am**

I came into the chronicles about 24 years ago, all 6 1st and 2nd were written and i pretty much read them one after another.
I have to say although i liked the 2nd series and its undoubtedly more original and cleverly written i never lost the feeling that i wish it had been more like the first.
The first hit all the right spots for me as a reader, i was transported to a world that was preferable to the one i was in (i wanted escapism) the characters in that world were preferable to the one i was in (they all seemed to care and treat each other and the land with higher ideals and respect) covenant in the first was really interesting and his behaviour set up some really emotional and conflicting scenarios that forced me to consider my own feelings and thoughts and because it was just him in THEIR world it felt like a personal journey that i lived through him. That was always a fantasy of mine especially as a disillusioned teenager, an outsider nobody transported somewhere beautiful where you suddenly are important and special to everyone. covenants anti stance just made that frustrating but all the more interesting as everyone tried harder and forgave his antagonistic tendancies. Lena, Elena, Mhoram, Bannor and Foamfollower were the wise loving friends and lovers i wanted to have or experience in the real world so i fell in love with them all. it was a place i wanted to be in and escape to. i didnt really feel that with the 2nd or last, so they cant really compare to me at least.

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:02 pm**

No question the first Chrons were SRD's Magnum Opus in my view. My love of the second Chrons was always at it's peak when we met old friends from the first Chrons in strange places (the Giants, Jeherrin and Haruchai of course), though the books did 'do it' for me in their own way. I won't pretend that the third Chrons haven't been an anticlimax for me - but many people have found them most satisfying of all and I envy those people bigtime!

Posted: **Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:10 pm**

I think it all depends on what moves you and what you want from a book. As you can see from my post, my needs are probably very different to others. A good example is my favourite character and the person that wrung the most emotion and still does is Elena, I really loved how strong, defiant also how tender she was not to mention her passion. She was artistic, beautiful and loving when she was with covenant. She is described as the embodiment and allure of the land. That's how I saw her, just like hile Troy not to mention Covenant who loved her too. Her insanity to me was no different than I have experienced when I have fallen in love with the wrong person and acted irrationally. Emotions do that to even the most rational level headed person, falling in love has been psychologically described as a sort of temporary insanity especially in the honeymoon period. The point being I identified strongly with her and empathized her predicament and I know that a lot of others do too. On the other hand a lot of people don't like her and see her as power hungry and foolish and insane. You take from these stories what you bring with you, so don't envy others for getting more out of the LC, you don't know that you got much more out of the 1st than they did. I
certainly did but because of who I was. I personally think all the books are
good but the 1st series really spoke to me. Maybe if I change as a person I
will appreciate the others more but I am who I am right now.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:23 am**

Peter wrote:I would love to talk to someone who discovered the chrrons only very recently and whose take on the first two series would be as fresh as their take on the third.

That's me!

Well, kinda. I finished the Second Chrons a matter of months before I first read ROTE. (after having the ending majorly spoiled by stupidly reading the inside jacket of ROTE. "Thomas Covenant is dead."

)

That said, my take on the first series isn't quite fresh- I've read the first trilogy more times than any other work of fiction, so it feels like my oldest friend. However, while the First Chrons are more sentimental to me, I have to say I actually thought the Second were better- I just find them harder to read, they're so damn bleak.

And I love the Last Chrons- as I've said elsewhere, Fatal Revenant is very close to being my favourite book of the lot. I can see the sense in saying the First Chrons are "heart" while the Last are "head" books. It's not quite as simple as that, of course, but overall I pretty much agree. The scope is exapanding- as Donaldson observed somewhere, Foul's attacks have gone from martial assault to perverting nature to direct attacks on Time itself. Any book dealing with direct interactions with Time is going to have some pretty conceptual material.

Posted: **Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:16 pm**

That's fair comment Cambo. I'm interested that you find the second Chrons 'so damned bleak'. I would put the third Chrons way higher on the 'bleakness' scale - but that may be due to the all pervading influence of Kevin's Dirt. For me the second Chrons was above all (as I said above) the meeting of old friends but also I loved the journey into new realms aboard Starfires Gem (gosh I so wish we could have some more of that - surely the place where Donaldsons prodigious imagination is truly displayed to its best effect). And finally you just can't ignore the sheer magnitude of the effort that has to be put into just surviving in the Land under the Sunbane! Hard to read - yes; bleak - well,no.

Kevin's Watch

How bad is it?