Kevin's Watch

AHA!

Yes, dlb, you are right on the money. And the reason is because every time Covenant was summoned, he did not return until the summoner died. (With the exception of Mhoram, who did not finished the summoning.)

Maybe Foul thinks that everyone who summons Covenant or Linden dies (or becomes massively diminshed). That was his mistake - by summoning Covenant and Linden, he somehow caused his own demise. And if he really wants to be free from the Arch, he has to arrange it so that this doesn't happen - he needs to be in top form when the Arch comes down.

It makes sense. Sort of.

Considering that every summoner died or was brought to his knees, I might be a little reluctant to summon anybody too!

I wonder what the link between the summoner-summoned and either ones death is? It's got to be more than superstition for Foul to fear it.
Perhaps there is some sort of blood link between the two--in Foul's case anyway.

Great posts guys. And a persuasive point.

So, Foul didn't summon Linden this time round. So the question remains, who did? Roger? Joan? A Raver? Some unknown?

--A

I thought it ws suggested in the book that Joan did: Foul summoned Joan, then Joan summoned everyone else.

But if Foul is not likely to make the mistake of summoning somebody directly again...

--A

The question is whether or not Foul made a mistake summoning Linden, not just any one. Would summoning anyone else be considered a mistake by Foul?

Why not? The answer doesn't say that summoning somebody specific was a mistake, just that being a summoner (in effect) was.

--A

I don't even know if Joan was even summoned.

As I pointed out at the base of this thread, Joan speaks as if she's been to the Land, or at least knows of it. Then there is the matter of the ceasures - somehow, she was creating them while she was in the hospital and Out Of It. And there's every indication that a Raver was involved with her through that whole time.

Joan and Jeremiah are alike in this respect. We get hints that they somehow are connected to the Land while they are in the real world at the same time.

Then Joan gets fried. Dead in her real world, she's in the Land. But was she summoned? Or was she somehow There all along? Or are the barriers between worlds Crumbling along with the Arch?

So it may be that Foul's mistake was directly summoning Covenant. Or directly summoning Linden. And he corrected the problem by being indirect, and having Joan pay the final price.

Or it may be that Foul found away to avoid summoning anyone at all. He got Jeremiah and Joan into the Land through some crack in the Arch. so he corrected his mistake by not summoning anyone.

OH WHEN WILL WE GET SOME ANSWERS!!!!!!

I've wondered about this, too. And there's one more summoning that wasn't mentioned:

Troy summoned by Atiaran, using (high wood? what'd she use?). Both were desperate/despairing. The thing that may shed some light is that Troy was not the intended summonee, though I don't know what that implies.

If Joan did the summoning in Runes, then we also have another new twist: being summoned by someone from the "real world". What can we glean from this?

It seems very likely that Joan and Jeremiah have been to the Land before Runes starts, and that both probably know a whole lot about it already. As we've speculated elsewhere, perhaps both have been there for the last 10 "real world" years. And then there's Roger. I believe it's very likely he has already been to the Land too.

I took SRD's quote to mean "Foul won't make the mistake of summoning Linden again" -- though I don't get what the mistake was. Did Foul expect her to take the ring from TC and unintentionally wake the Worm? Doubtful, as he told TC "you will of your own volition place the ring into my hand." Then what does SRD mean? It could also be that Foul's plan with Linden is a backup plan; if getting the ring from TC did not free Foul (or if TC never did give him the ring) then maybe he has a plan for her, which we'll see played out in the upcoming books.

Wayfriend wrote:OH WHEN WILL WE GET SOME ANSWERS!!!!!!

Please refer to the top of the page

Relayer wrote:Troy summoned by Atiaran, using (high wood? what'd she use?). Both were desperate/despairing. The thing that may shed some light is that Troy was not the intended summonee, though I don't know what that implies.

Good, good. It may imply that Atairan was not the intended summoner.

Relayer wrote:If Joan did the summoning in Runes, then we also have another new twist: being summoned by someone from the "real world". What can we glean from this?

Really good. But I got nuthin.

Relayer wrote:I took SRD's quote to mean "Foul won't make the mistake of summoning Linden again" --

I don't think so .... Linden was unintended. But this prodded me into thinking of another possibility. And I think this seems to be on some more solid ground.

What if the mistake was that Foul wanted to summon Covenant, but he got Linden in the bargain. Linden was unforseen, right?

Which turned all his plans to ruin. Perhaps there's no total control over what gets summoned, or perhaps there's no preventing the Creator from having a say in who responds to the summons. So Foul, learning this, did it differently. Now whomever is summoned will rebound against Joan rather than himself - or so he hopes.

He may even have dodged the Creator interfering altogether. Which explains *that* question.

OR ....

Perhaps there is no way to unsummon someone except death. When Foul summoned Covenant and Linden, he could not eject them from the game. This time, by using Joan, he has a reset button. He can kill Joan and send Linden back.

No, that makes no sense, cause Joan is dead, and Linden is dead, and Roger is dead. Dang.

I'm not going to comment on the last thing Wayfriend said, cause that's too for me to consider, right now... but,

Wayfriend also wrote:As I pointed out at the base of this thread, Joan speaks as if she's been to the Land, or at least knows of it. Then there is the matter of the ceasures - somehow, she was creating them while she was in the hospital and Out Of It. And there's every indication that a Raver was involved with her through that whole time.

That's how I look at it, too.

Wayfriend wrote:[Perhaps there is no way to unsummon someone except death. When Foul summoned Covenant and Linden, he could not eject them from the game. This time, by using Joan, he has a reset button. He can kill Joan and send Linden back.

No, that makes no sense, cause Joan is dead, and Linden is dead, and Roger is dead. Dang.

Damn, that was good WayFriend. But I see your rebuttal too. If Linden is dead she can't go back.

But maybe she's not dead yet. Maybe her body is lying bleeding out in the real world, like TC's was at the end of WGW?

--A

There's no way she's

Spoiler

dead, or dying

She got shot in the chest... *shrug*

--A

See, at this point in the story I can't accept that Linden is already dead, nor do I think we should assume that she will certainly die.

Relayer wrote:I took SRD's quote to mean "Foul won't make the mistake of summoning Linden again" --

That's how i understood it too.

Wayfriend wrote:I don't think so .... Linden was unintended. But this prodded me into thinking of another possibility. And I think this seems to be on some more solid ground.

What if the mistake was that Foul wanted to summon Covenant, but he got Linden in the bargain. Linden was unforseen, right?

Which turned all his plans to ruin. Perhaps there's no total control over what gets summoned, or perhaps there's no preventing the Creator from having a say in who responds to the summons. So Foul, learning this, did it differently. Now whomever is summoned will rebound against Joan rather than himself - or so he hopes

I like the idea of no total control over who gets summoned. In the 2nd Chrons Foul seemed to have plans for Linden, so perhaps his intention was to summon her after Covenant, but he botched it and got both of them at the same time. Perhaps this time around he only wanted Linden, but did not trust himself (for whatever reason) to summon her, so he manipulated Joan and Roger to eventually do his dirty work.

Or let's assume Foul did not intend to summon Linden in the 2nd Chrons--he knew she could possibly wield wild magic. Perhaps he did not want Linden back this time around either. She ruined things for him once already. Maybe Joan summoned Linden to aid her and to save the Land. Foul is simply making the best of the circumstances. He must now manipulate Linden as he did the first time around. He has no other choice.

Should we move this to another thread? It's really hard to discuss w/out jumping ahead in the book

I think it's probable that Foul knew Linden was coming along last time w/ TC. After all, the Creator chose her... it's very possible that Foul knows anything the Creator does. He had access to Joan then, and could've been forewarned. Or it could be that once she got there, he improvised.

Tulizar wrote:Or let's assume Foul did not intend to summon Linden in the 2nd Chrons--he knew she could possibly wield wild magic.

Why wouldn't he want this? Anyone who can wield it can break the Arch and set him free.

Wayfriend wrote:No, that makes no sense, cause Joan is dead, and Linden is dead, and Roger is dead. Dang.

But Jeremiah isn't. For whatever that's worth.

Relayer wrote:

Tulizar wrote:Or let's assume Foul did not intend to summon Linden in the 2nd Chrons--he knew she could possibly wield wild magic.

Why wouldn't he want this? Anyone who can wield it can break the Arch and set him free.

True, but if wielded properly it could also defeat him. If Foul's mistake was summoning Linden, perhaps he feared Linden's potential of using TC to wield wild magic. Or maybe he simply didn't want to deal with two such powerful people at the same time. Either way it might have been more desirable for Foul to not deal with Linden the first time around.

So I guess with both TC and Linden in the Land simultaneously the potential to destroy the AOT was doubled, but there was also a significant possibility that they could wield wild magic to destroy/imprison Foul. Which was more important to Foul?

Hmm...I'm not sure if I'm making sense here...

Tulizar wrote:I like the idea of no total control over who gets summoned. In the 2nd Chrons Foul seemed to have plans for Linden, so perhaps his intention was to summon her after Covenant, but he botched it and got both of them at the same time.

I think Foul did his best to seem like she was planned for. But there are some hints in the Second Chronicles that indicate that all of Foul's plans were devised after he learned about her. I can only find this one, but I am sure there are more:

In [u]The Wounded Land[/u] was wrote:He bowed his head to hide his turmoil. Foul hadn't spoken to her? The implications both relieved and frightened him. Was she somehow independent of him? Free of his control? Or was he already that sure of her?

Av wrote:She got shot in the chest... *shrug*

I guess my wording was bad, I agree, I should have wrote: No Way!

Spoiler

She's dead, or dying...she is dying

(unless you were agreeing with me...)