Kevin's Watch

Yes, I was pishing and toshing* your insistence that it must have been an Elohim doing the actual speaking. (Like Metatron in Dogma? ) I think the Earthpower did something absolutely extraordinary that one time, and spoke for itself, bypassing an atman/Elohim. We could endlessly discuss and debate the reasons it chose to speak in its own voice that one time, but we'd never know. (I doubt SRD is going to tell.) Maybe it knew even the Ritual of Desecration wasn't as great a threat, and didn't bother talking to Kevin directly. Maybe it saw that Caer-Caveral was doing a good job, and knew what Covenant had in mind, and didn't feel the need to act directly. But maybe when Berek was about to die, it had reason to believe the Land's existence was soon to be permanently changed beyond all recognition or repair.

And don't worry about my disagreeing. It's all good, clean fun!

*My thanks to Wayfriend for having introduced Pish and tosh at the Watch.

Hello all!

I can see where the idea of eternal spring comes from - in The Wounded Land, SRD described the air as:

ether as crisp as sempiternal spring

when Covenant entered Andelain for the second time. And in WGW:

A greensward as lush as springtime

Also from WGW, 'The Last Bourne':

It was an avatar of spring, the revel of summer, it was autumn glory and winter peace.

However, I see these as more metaphors than literal descriptions. The ambience of Andelain having the vibrancy, the potency of springtime regardless of when one visits. He doesn't go so far as to say that the eternal springtime is literal. And don't forget, in The Power That Preserves, the entire land is steeped in a preternatural winter. There is no mention of Andelain being exempt. Surely the Lords would have been aware if it had been? OK, so even if Andelain had been covered in snow at that time it wouldn't have been through natural means, so that doesn't necessarily disqualify the Eternal Spring Theory.
Part of Caer-Caveral's Lament made me wonder, though -

While the world's ruin runs wood and wold,
Sap and bough are grief and grim to me, engreivement fell,
And petals fall without relief

Was he talking about the foliage of the Sunbane here? I kind of doubt it. So do petals typically fall in springtime...?

I just feel that if Andelain was that anomalous from the rest of the land, if it was indeed immune to the natural turning of the seasons, it would have been mentioned at some point. Not just the ambience of the place having the vitality of spring, or being likened unto spring, but actually an area of the land perhaps a couple of hundred miles long and wide never actually experiencing summer or autumn or winter. One of the lords would surely have commented on it, perhaps during the preternatural winter of the Power That Preserves. Surely Atiaran would have said something about it ( oh-oh, I can't be sure whether she did right now as I've lent the 1st book to a friend ). Or perhaps Manethrall Rue when she reported that the Hills were free of corruption during TIW? Apart from in LFB, when it was springtime across the whole land, does SRD ever actually state that the season is spring when Covenant visits, or does he merely use spring-like metaphors?

Of course, none of this is proof either way. But it hardly stacks up in favour of eternal spring, and it doesn't need to stack up in favour of natural seasons, because they would be the norm.

I'm narrowly leaning in the direction of natural seasons here...

Again, I see no scene or description or aside by a character in which andelain is represented in any other season than spring. Every depiction and characterization of Andelain has it in a spring-like mode. Summer, perhaps, but decisively not in fall or winter.

I like your two cents, ur-monkey! They're shiny. Nice quotes, too.

ur-monkey wrote: One of the lords would surely have commented on it, perhaps during the preternatural winter of the Power That Preserves. Surely Atiaran would have said something about it?

Just want to clarify that when I ask about Eternal Spring, I'm referring to the time period of the 2nd Chrons, when the Sunbane was busily torturing the Land. In LFB it's stated quite clearly that Thomas Covenant arrived in spring, which held sway both within Andelain and without.

It just seems to me that a different situation may have obtained during the Sunbane, is all. Andelain might have entered a sort of stasis under Caer-Caveral's protection, a state that remained until the protection was removed and the Sunbane was able to break in.

As a tangent, I have always wondered why Andelain was so apt to a Forestal's hand. I know it had gobs of Earthpower, but did it have a vestigal consciousness, like the consciousness the remnants of the One Forest held onto for so long? In the early books, there's no similarity between the vibe of, say, Morinmoss -- all clenched sufferance and slumberous rage -- and what Covenant and Atiaran experienced in Andelain. But then again, at the end of WGW, we read about Andelain mustering its resistsance and persevering at its heart. So... I dunno.

Good post, ur-monkey! But I think I need to clarify the "eternal spring" idea a bit more here - or at least my version of it. I'm basing my eternal spring view of Andelain solely on how it's presented in the 2nd Chronicles, not on anything in the 1st Chrons.

What I'm suggesting is that Andelain, regardless of whether or not it followed the seasons pre-Sunbane, is staying in perpetual spring/summer during the Sunbane era, in order to keep the Earthpower flowing (or flowering) at maximum strength. And that helps boost Caer-Caveral's ability to protect Andelain, because I'm working under the assumption that a) he derives his strength from Andelain, and b) it's more difficult to draw Earthpower from a winter-locked Andelain. Of course, I've got nothing from the text of the books to back up this little pet hypothesis, so I'm basically "reading between the lines." SRD says he allows for his readers to interpret things on their own, so I'm sticking with my interpretation of Andelain for now, until it can be shown that I'm as clueless as a Cavewight about the whole thing.

CovenantJr wrote:If the seasons are natural - and they are - I don't see why it would be any more difficult for Caer Caveral to access Earthpower in Andelain during winter. It's not he like he has to physically drag it through the frozen soil. It's power, it just comes out. Nothing is more natural than the changing of the seasons, and this natural cycle should itself radiate Earthpower.

What I'm suggesting is that maybe the "Law" of the seasons could've been bent or tweaked in Andelain by Caer-Caveral, without "breaking" it.

Wayfriend wrote:I'd like to believe that Andelain was significant in the healing of the Sunbane: that Linden was able to draw on Andelain's natural order to inspire her healing, able to model the healed Land on the example Andelain provided. "She felt in her bones the rhythm of rise and fall, the strict and vital alternation of seasons, summer and winter." Linden absorbed the Sunbane by becoming, in a spiritual way, one with the Land, absorbing the harm of the Sunbane, restoring the founding principals which lied buried under yuck. And Andelain is the heart of the Land; Andelain was a major source of that feeling of what was strict and vital.

If this is so, then Andelain would have natural seasons. The whole thing would not have worked if Andelain was "special" and "magical" rather than the epitome of nature itself.

You almost convinced me the eternal spring thing is hogwash, Wayfriend. But like CJ said, we're a stubborn lot. Stubborn as half-handed lepers.

Funny thing is, I've always considered Andelain as "special."

Look, it could be that I'm just infatuated with the poetic picture of an ever-green Andelain. As jwaneeta said: "...the idea of Andelain as a sort of perfect Sleeping Beauty is just so... pretty and poignant." Yes, and at the same time hopeful and tragic.

This "minor niggly question" of jwaneeta's has turned into an epic inquiry! I think that, ultimately, only SRD himself can lay this question to rest and shut up both sides.

Oops, jwaneeta posted while I was composing mine. See, she was only referring to Andelain in the 2nd Chrons, too!

jwaneeta wrote:...at the end of WGW, we read about Andelain mustering its resistsance and persevering at its heart.

I think the general view is that it was the spirits of Sunder and Hollian that helped Andelain persevere. They must've taken on some of Caer-Caveral's power. They would be like, um, mini-Forestals? ur-Forestals?

Matrixman, Ur- forestals???? Now that's a really cool idea!!!! suppose that completely by accident that Sunder and Hollian stumbled upon the power of Forestals and were able to draw forth the power of Caer-Caveral without even Knowing it....Now that's really a neat idea!!!

*blinks* I really have nothing to add here, except to say that I'm going to have to do a lot of reading to catch up with all of you. I feel pretty humbled.


Oh, and I'm leaning toward the different seasons in Andelain. Not that I have anything to base that on except for my reading of the books lo, those many years ago.

~Lyr, humbled newbie

Aelyria Mireiswen wrote:*blinks* I really have nothing to add here, except to say that I'm going to have to do a lot of reading to catch up with all of you. I feel pretty humbled.


Oh, and I'm leaning toward the different seasons in Andelain. Not that I have anything to base that on except for my reading of the books lo, those many years ago.

~Lyr, humbled newbie

Hey Lyr, nothing to feel humbled about,We have all read the Tc series so much that all of us find some common link with someone in the story...
Not much to worry about,we all have some kind of shortcoming or other.I have been humbled many times and yet I still am here.......Oh,BTW, we all (at least I do) have copy of TC somewhere on hand to review the questions and comments that pop up from time to time......Don't despair!!!!

Well, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this. . . but what you are describing is how I am with the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan. I know them front, back, up, down, ect. But even though I really love those books, I know that he has synthesized (okay, sometimes even lifted) concepts from many major works of fantasy from the past 30 years. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd like to get to the point where I can intelligently contribute to the conversations here, as I have in the past on other boards dedicated to other series.

I feel that there is a lot in the chrons that I haven't analyzed completely, and I think that being here will enable me to do that. But I have a long way to go before I will be able to recall what Linden said to Covenant on a certain day. I do have a really good memory, but I think it's been over 7 years since I last read the chronicles all the way through. *shrugs*

Ramble, ramble. .

~Lyr

Welcome to the ramble, Aelyria!

Jwaneeta:

Just want to clarify that when I ask about Eternal Spring, I'm referring to the time period of the 2nd Chrons, when the Sunbane was busily torturing the Land. In LFB it's stated quite clearly that Thomas Covenant arrived in spring, which held sway both within Andelain and without.

I'm with you on that one! It was definitely spring in LFB wasn't it? However, you coulod make a case that that means there is less evidence for eternal spring. Covenant visited Andelain 3 times - the first time, yeah, it was spring - but hey, so what? It was spring everywhere. The 2nd and 3rd times, during the sunbane, metaphors of spring were used but I couldn't find any definitive statement of springtime.

That said, the 2 visits during the sunbane, as far as I can work out, were not a year apart...

Hm, yes, I can see perhaps a little bit more justification for the Eternal Spring Hypotheses in the Second Chrons. Not enough to totally convince me, mind, but I think it's a fair point to suggest Andelain in a state of stasis in those times. Maybe.

But what about Caer-Caveral's (presumed) agenda of keeping the flora and fauna in touch with the natural cycle? Once ordinary seasons resumed, for example, the hedgehogs will have forgotten how to hibernate! Some plants and animals are gonna be hit for six when narmality kicks in again. C-C knew he was 'doomed to fail this war' and so surely would not want to leave a legacy of confused animals and incapable trees and plants!

Which begs a bit of a side question. Why was Hamako bothering with his Waynhim project? Didn't he know about Andelain? He was a local boy after all!

Why was Hamako bothering with his Waynhim project?

Hamako was helping the waynhim to try to keep all of the different species of animals alive underground when they would die under the sunbane; I think he may have considered taking them into andelain, but what if Andelain fell? It as a noble and selfless task, and think he spent his time well.

iquestor wrote:

Why was Hamako bothering with his Waynhim project?

Hamako was helping the waynhim to try to keep all of the different species of animals alive underground when they would die under the sunbane; I think he may have considered taking them into andelain, but what if Andelain fell? It as a noble and selfless task, and think he spent his time well.

Excellent point! There shows the very fact that both Hamako and the Waynhim held hope that the Sunbane would be defeated in the end.And yes I do believe Hamako died well.

Aelyria Mireiswen wrote:Well, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this. . . but what you are describing is how I am with the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan. I know them front, back, up, down, ect. But even though I really love those books, I know that he has synthesized (okay, sometimes even lifted) concepts from many major works of fantasy from the past 30 years. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd like to get to the point where I can intelligently contribute to the conversations here, as I have in the past on other boards dedicated to other series.

I feel that there is a lot in the chrons that I haven't analyzed completely, and I think that being here will enable me to do that. But I have a long way to go before I will be able to recall what Linden said to Covenant on a certain day. I do have a really good memory, but I think it's been over 7 years since I last read the chronicles all the way through. *shrugs*

Ramble, ramble. .

~Lyr

It's not so important to know the Chronicles back to front as to sound like you do.

CovenantJr wrote:

Aelyria Mireiswen wrote:Well, I hope I don't get stoned for saying this. . . but what you are describing is how I am with the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan. I know them front, back, up, down, ect. But even though I really love those books, I know that he has synthesized (okay, sometimes even lifted) concepts from many major works of fantasy from the past 30 years. The point I'm trying to make is that I'd like to get to the point where I can intelligently contribute to the conversations here, as I have in the past on other boards dedicated to other series.

I feel that there is a lot in the chrons that I haven't analyzed completely, and I think that being here will enable me to do that. But I have a long way to go before I will be able to recall what Linden said to Covenant on a certain day. I do have a really good memory, but I think it's been over 7 years since I last read the chronicles all the way through. *shrugs*

Ramble, ramble. .

~Lyr

It's not so important to know the Chronicles back to front as to sound like you do.

There ya go!! There's the crux of the whole thing!But isn't that giving away trade secrets here???

Right?!? She's just a newbie!!


Um... I mean WELCOME LYR!!!!

Aelyria wrote:

feel that there is a lot in the chrons that I haven't analyzed completely, and I think that being here will enable me to do that. But I have a long way to go before I will be able to recall what Linden said to Covenant on a certain day. I do have a really good memory, but I think it's been over 7 years since I last read the chronicles all the way through. *shrugs*

I have read the chrons 8 times now, and learn some new insight every time I browse this forum. I love TC and the story touches me, and many truths on many levels, and we all here love it. If you browse through the dissection forum, you can pick up a lot. But it is not necessary to memorize as you seem to think.

I can tell you for the most part the major events of each book, but many times I go back and look through them. The quotes you see are handt typed, holding a book with one hand and typing with another. we just love this stuff and you will to.

you are one of us. welcome

By all means Lyr, as you can see we're really a mixed bag,a motley crew of sorts and it's all GREAT fun!!!! JUST DON'T LURK!!!!
Besides,LURKING is really impolite,kinda like a peeping tom!!!

Thank you, everyone. Especially for giving away the trade secrets.

Actually, I went to the local used bookstore and bought books 2-6 today. Of course they didn't have a SINGLE copy of Lord Foul's Bane on hand. *mutters imprecations* But I'm going to the big town tomorrow for work, and I'll swing by another bookstore to grab LFB. With any luck, I can be through LFB by the end of the week at least (if not sooner). If only I didn't have to work . . .

And I promise I won't be a peeping Lyr. I'll post from time to time, even if just to say that I don't have a lot to say. Yeah. . . you guys will prolly tire of me before long.

~Lyr

Aelyria Mireiswen wrote:
And I promise I won't be a peeping Lyr. I'll post from time to time, even if just to say that I don't have a lot to say. Yeah. . . you guys will prolly tire of me before long.

~Lyr

Nah,I never tire of good company,sometimes the best conversations are never spoken........

Welcome, Aelyria! Interesting username you have.

Don't be afraid to make a fool of yourself. I do all the time, as my long-winded posts here demonstrate.