Kevin's Watch

Lucimay wrote:

Montressor wrote:

Cail wrote:If the sign of a good line is the desire to read past it, then King's written a ton of them.

I don't deny that. I just don't believe he's ever written a great line. Let me put it this way - he's a damn good story-teller, a very accomplished hack, but not a great writer nor an artist.

sez you. no "art" to telling a story well. nnnnnnoooooo. none at all.

Not what I said at all. I admitted he could tell a good story . . . but in my opinion (and 'sez I' is totally legitimate in a thread entitled 2 Things I absolutely hate about SK's writing) he cannot tell a great story.

In my view (yes, mine ), and in this context, an artist is someone who writes something great . . . not someone who does something good. Hacks, like Stephen King, are good at what they do - artists like, say, Italo Calvino were great at what they did.

Joel Schumacker can make a good movie, but does that make him an artist? I don't think so. Akira Kurosawa, on the other hand, made great movies, and was an artist. My point is that there is a division between hacks and artists. Hacks and artists do the same kinds of things, but the artist does it so much better than the hack.

A Gunslinger wrote:

Well, to each his own . . .

I'll say this, he kicks Clancy's ass from here to Jack Ryan's hometown.

Indeed . I can easily see why King has such a following . . . and, yeah, Clancy isn't even worth mentioning in the same breath as King. Clancy belongs filed next to Koontz and Dan Brown, under "Shite".

I agree with Montressor on this--he's not a great writer.
There's also something about his work that--for some reason I can't put my finger on--seems to be american in a way I just can't relate to. That's all IMO, of course.

I've been looking forward to reading Joe Hill's novel mostly because I've read things saying how good his writing is--and how unlike his father's.

don't sugar coat it montressor...tell us how you REALLY feel!

sez i, i sez i preferred The Stand, The Dark Tower, Salem's Lot, Insomnia, Dolores Claiborne, and Different Seasons to A Castle of Crossed Destinies.

one King made me want to read all King (even the shite King) but one
Calvino was enough Calvino!

i guess, sez i, that makes me a hack reader!

Lucimay wrote:don't sugar coat it montressor...tell us how you REALLY feel!

I thought I did . . .

yes you did. i was commenting on your prowess at doing so.

I don't doubt that King's a hack (generally), but he's written a few things that rise far, far above his typical writing. I'd call Wizard & Glass or The Stand great, classic literature, and as good as anything else that can be listed.

I don't know if it's a universal truth or just a relatively common phenomenon but it appears that in literature, cinema, and music, the willingness to judge something as "art" is inversely proportional to the amount of popular success that the piece enjoys. IMHO, once an artist or his creation achieves a certain level of mass acceptance it passes from "art" to something less, something more bourgeois.

I think King passed that threshold long ago. Despite that fact, I don't think his mass popularity tarnishes the truly great pieces of literature he has produced. I would include "The Stand", "Wizard and Glass", and "The Dead Zone" in that rareified air.

**** Edited: Double Post ****

and i add "Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption" to that list Brinn.

Yeah Brinn, definitely The Dead Zone.

Brinn wrote:I don't know if it's a universal truth or just a relatively common phenomenon but it appears that in literature, cinema, and music, the willingness to judge something as "art" is inversely proportional to the amount of popular success that the piece enjoys. IMHO, once an artist or his creation achieves a certain level of mass acceptance it passes from "art" to something less, something more bourgeois.

I think King passed that threshold long ago. Despite that fact, I don't think his mass popularity tarnishes the truly great pieces of literature he has produced. I would include "The Stand", "Wizard and Glass", and "The Dead Zone" in that rareified air.

I don't believe that is universally true at all. Take two film makers - Kurosawa and Kubrick. Both men enjoyed both enormous commercial success, as well as enormous artistic and critical acclaim in their life times. In the world of literature, there are many examples also - Umberto Eco and Italo Calvino are both best selling authors, and both men enjoy (enjoyed, in Calvino's case) enormous critical/artistic acclaim. Jospeh Conrad was considered one of the greatest english language writers of all time, and he was praised for his work's artistic merit while he was alive. William Shakespeare etc etc . . . I could list many, many more examples, though I think you get the point.

Of course, there are sadly many cases where great artists receive no recognition in their lifetimes, or have poor commercial success. No one read Moby Dick while Melville was alive, for instance. He continued to skirt poverty and work in a dull job as a civil servant. It wasn't until after he died that his book received attention and many started to think that he may have written the greatest American novel of all time.

Fair enough...but it is nonetheless a curious phenomenon.

montressor, i think you might argue till you're blue in the face but i don't think you'll actually convince any of us that think otherwise to think...well....otherwise!

Lucimay wrote:montressor, i think you might argue till you're blue in the face but i don't think you'll actually convince any of us that think otherwise to think...well....otherwise!

And nor am I trying to.

Well, this line from Wizard and Glass I definitely consider "memorable".

King wrote -

Twice they did it with hardly a pause to natter in between (she would have given a good deal to hear that natter, too). Rhea wasn't surprised; at his young age, she supposed the brat had enough spunkum in his sack to give her a week's worth of doubles, and from way the little slut acted, that might be to her taste.

duke wrote:Well, this line from Wizard and Glass I definitely consider "memorable".

King wrote -

Twice they did it with hardly a pause to natter in between (she would have given a good deal to hear that natter, too). Rhea wasn't surprised; at his young age, she supposed the brat had enough spunkum in his sack to give her a week's worth of doubles, and from way the little slut acted, that might be to her taste.

The Dark Tower - Wizard and Glass - CLASS! The Dark Tower Vol 7 - what happened???? I'd been waiting years for this.... did he get bored and bitter? What a stinging let down. I'm still not over it.

Yeah, definitely felt too rushed to me.

--A

Worst King ending has to be "The Colorado Kid" - if you haven't read it, it's a mystery (very short) where at the end the mystery is never really solved...gee, thanks!

Zenlunatic wrote:Worst King ending has to be "The Colorado Kid" - if you haven't read it, it's a mystery (very short) where at the end the mystery is never really solved...gee, thanks!

Don't watch Picnic at Hanging Rock, then

I like it when mysteries aren't explained. Often, I find the mystery is a thousand times more interesting than the explanation.

That said, I haven't read it, so can't comment on how pants it was.