Kevin's Watch

I have kids, so yeah, I'd be compelled to stop and comfort.

I always feel the urge to help, but Im a pretty big dude, and can be a little intimidating, even if I am harmless. So most of the time, I hedge my bets, and assume the person wouldn't appreciate a total stranger that twice their size asking if they're "OK?"

Less mace that way.

Balon wrote:Less mace that way.

--A

Nerdanel wrote:I don't think the question assumes the emotional response is a choice. Instead, I think the point of this thread is to question (without going into nature/nurture) whether the people on this forum share a common emotional response since we are self-selected to enjoy Donaldson's books.

I think perhaps there should be another poll to look for correlation with the emotional reaction and THOOLAH membership.

Also, it could be nice to compare the results here to results on say a generic fantasy board or a Goodkind board. I have a feeling the Goodkind fans would tend towards the "walk away" category, but that's just my impression without any real evidence.

I think you missed my point. For some people, emotional interaction is not possible. These people are not Goodkind-esque, "walk away" jerks. This is not nature/nurture. Those are psychological interpretations. I'm not talking psychology.

Imagine you were a musician. You play for three people and ask them what they thought. One hates all music fundamentally and won't respond. One ignores your music believing nothing could ever match the music he creates. One is stone-deaf. Two of them are jerks. One is not. The poll question doesn't distinguish the difference.

Khaliban wrote: The poll question doesn't distinguish the difference.

Well, it would become a very complicated poll, wouldn't it (if you had to cover all bases)! I think the commentary that goes with the poll (ie: all the things said on this thread) discuss the complexity of the issue and also give people the option of clarifying their point of view. Nothing is ever clear cut as far as I'm concerned. I very rarely "fit in the box". I choose not to participate in polls where I think I can't choose an option that is close to what I think/believe.

CovenantJr wrote: In the case of a stranger, I feel the urge to leave. I don't think it's lack of empathy; I think it's reverse empathy. I can deal with just about anything alone. If I'm uspet, I will get over it alone; indeed, I tend to find if I'm getting sympathetic noises etc from people, I can't recover and pull myself together until they've gone away. Also, I tend to detest being asked if I'm ok. So basically I feel the urge to avoid sobbing strangers because 1) my reverse empathy tells me they're better off if I leave them to it, and 2) I don't really care, and I can't be doing with manufacturing an artificial shoulder to cry on.

You nailed it. Reverse empathy.

I respect other people's personal space too much to intrude on it.

Matrixman wrote:

CovenantJr wrote: In the case of a stranger, I feel the urge to leave. I don't think it's lack of empathy; I think it's reverse empathy. I can deal with just about anything alone. If I'm uspet, I will get over it alone; indeed, I tend to find if I'm getting sympathetic noises etc from people, I can't recover and pull myself together until they've gone away. Also, I tend to detest being asked if I'm ok. So basically I feel the urge to avoid sobbing strangers because 1) my reverse empathy tells me they're better off if I leave them to it, and 2) I don't really care, and I can't be doing with manufacturing an artificial shoulder to cry on.

You nailed it. Reverse empathy.

I respect other people's personal space too much to intrude on it.

i respect this perspective as well, gentlemen.

except when i just need you to sit there and let me cry on your sweater.

i try to figure out, if a situation like this arises, whether the person looks like they're LOOKING for someone to ask, or whether they're giving off "just let me alone i'll get through it" vibes.
sometimes i'm right. sometimes i'm wrong. every situation is different, as i think i said earlier regarding how i, myself, deal.

Anyhow, the question wasn't what you *would* do -- it's what your gut reaction would be. I would have a desire to comfort, but not an irrefutable one, and I wouldn't necessarily act on my desire. It would depend on location, situation, the vibes the person was giving off, etc.

I'd feel a desire to comfort, but I wouldn't act on it because I'd feel weird. Well, maybe if it was a small child I'd ask if they were okay.

sgtnull wrote:sorry, i have little sympathy or empathy. i was just made that way.

It might surprise you, but that's not how I had you figured.

Eh, I think Donaldson looks down on people who don't like or criticize his books. He finds ways to belittle them (see the GI thread for evidence on how he treats people who are critical--he thinks they are feeding their own ego and deserve to be publicly embarrassed). It's a disturbing tendency. And for a guy with loads of empathy, it's not very empathetic to think that people who tire of whiney, crying fictional characters are uncaring people themselves. It's an unfair generalization to account for people who don't like his style on the basis of an assumed pyschological reaction to real-world situations. I think he's an extremely judgemental person. But then, so am I.

I don't think he's belittling people who don't like his books here. For example, I'm sure we all agree that there are people like my mom who would in all likelihood never make past the rape scene (or even the leprosarium scene!) because they like to read about nicer things.

SRD has acknowledged this division in the GI, but I don't feel like combing through the length of it right now...

Nerd, you don't think it's belittling to say that people who don't like his emotional characters are probably the same people who leave the room rather than comfort a crying person? I see no other reason to link reading preference with personal choices unless you're making a judgement of that person. And I see no reason to make this specific judgement unless you're using it to explain why certain types of people don't like your book.

Malik23 wrote:Eh, I think Donaldson looks down on people who don't like or criticize his books. He finds ways to belittle them (see the GI thread for evidence on how he treats people who are critical--he thinks they are feeding their own ego and deserve to be publicly embarrassed). It's a disturbing tendency. And for a guy with loads of empathy, it's not very empathetic to think that people who tire of whiney, crying fictional characters are uncaring people themselves. It's an unfair generalization to account for people who don't like his style on the basis of an assumed pyschological reaction to real-world situations. I think he's an extremely judgemental person. But then, so am I.

You know, I would've argued this point vehemently until that exchange he had with Preston last month. I've never met the man, and from what Luci, Jenn, and everyone else who's met him says, he's a great guy.

I dunno, I just like his books.

Malik23 wrote:Eh, I think Donaldson looks down on people who don't like or criticize his books. He finds ways to belittle them (see the GI thread for evidence on how he treats people who are critical--he thinks they are feeding their own ego and deserve to be publicly embarrassed). It's a disturbing tendency. And for a guy with loads of empathy, it's not very empathetic to think that people who tire of whiney, crying fictional characters are uncaring people themselves. It's an unfair generalization to account for people who don't like his style on the basis of an assumed pyschological reaction to real-world situations. I think he's an extremely judgemental person. But then, so am I.

Hmm, nicely observed.

Seareach wrote:

Khaliban wrote: The poll question doesn't distinguish the difference.

Well, it would become a very complicated poll, wouldn't it (if you had to cover all bases)! I think the commentary that goes with the poll (ie: all the things said on this thread) discuss the complexity of the issue and also give people the option of clarifying their point of view. Nothing is ever clear cut as far as I'm concerned. I very rarely "fit in the box". I choose not to participate in polls where I think I can't choose an option that is close to what I think/believe.

If there is no poll option which i find personally suitable to be, i'll normally jsut substitute the opinion of someone older i respect.

Cail wrote:You know, I would've argued this point vehemently until that exchange he had with Preston last month. I've never met the man, and from what Luci, Jenn, and everyone else who's met him says, he's a great guy.

I dunno, I just like his books.

I'm sure he is a great guy. This is exactly why I wouldn't want to meet him--I respect him too much to like him. If I ever developed a fondness for him based on a personal acquiantance, I'd probably be too biased to ever criticize him again. And I need to be able to criticize my favorite authors. Otherwise, I become blind to their mistakes, and repeat them myself out of sheer fanboy worship. Being able to criticize someone I respect so much keeps them at a distance, reminds me that they're still human, and that you don't need to be super-human in order to write fantastic novels. (You know, the same thing the ranyhyn were trying to tell Elena during the horserite.) It's okay to be a crass, arrogant SOB who curses too much (like me), or a sobbing bestseller who judges people unfairly when they don't like his book--like Donaldson.

I think SRD may have misdiagnosed a little. It appears that there can be unsympathetic-to-other-people readers that like SRD's writing, just not the writing with Linden in it, or Runes, as Linden is the main character. (A poll to substantiate this could be nice though.) Still, I would like to see a version of this sympathy poll on a Goodkind fan site. I have a feeling that the results would be radically different. A Jordan fansite could be used as a control.

We need more polls.

Malik wrote:And for a guy with loads of empathy, it's not very empathetic to think that people who tire of whiney, crying fictional characters are uncaring people themselves.

... You sound uncaring towards Linden though... I'm not saying you are a completely uncaring person, but I think the amount of caring required to like Linden is greater than you have. People have different tresholds. I like Linden, but I found The Last Herald Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey an absolutely painful experience. Talk about whining, whining, and more whining! In the middle of the whining, the main character becomes a great and powerful warrior mage (with a telepathic blue-eyed magic horse, ugh!), but of course we're spared almost all of the action so that the whining about relationships part can be maximized. And still some people think that's the best of all Lackey's works. I'm afraid to try the rest for fear that my brain might explode.

It's a continuum, folks. People who hate Linden, please take a look at The Last Herald Mage and discover the true nature of extreme whininess. I dare you.

Nerdanel wrote:
... You sound uncaring towards Linden though... I'm not saying you are a completely uncaring person, but I think the amount of caring required to like Linden is greater than you have.

Oh, not at all! I'm not one of the Linden haters. I think Donaldson might not always do her character justice, but I love Linden! I don't mind if she cries easily. Heck, she's a girl. Just because I don't cry easily doesn't mean I don't dig the chicks. [God, could I be anymore insulting? ]

My complaint, as usual, is with the creator, not the creation. I love these books and everything about them (which disproves his theory, btw. )

Malik wrote:I love these books and everything about them

Now tell me again that you in fact do love the handling of Linden and her motivations in Runes?!?